# Is the high sparrow a villain? (GOT) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288 "2019-04-09T16:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/21 "2019-04-10T19:09:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is nuts. He definitely was trying to force his religion on the country but it is not that bad a religion. In his first scene he is handing out soup to the poor and hungry, and that is something none of the other characters ever does. He has trial by combat outlawed and says that all people should be equal before the law. Brother Ray was an example of the type of person who was a septon. > > Roose raped Ramsay’s mother under the tree where the dead body of her husband was still hanging. His crime was failing to ask permission to wed. > If Roose Bolton were king it would be a place where any woman who struck his fancy or that of his son could be raped with impunity and anyone who complained would be eaten by dogs or skinned alive. Torture for anyone accused of a crime. People could be hunted for sport by anyone with power. Roose Bolton is an evil fuck and his son is even worse, but their own personal atrocities pale in comparison to what was done in the name of the church. Roose’s personal motto was “a peaceful land, a quiet people.” You are vastly underestimating the evil the church did, and this is without holding any official power. It was literally supposed to be a parallel to the inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/22 "2019-04-10T19:13:59Z")
I don’t like him because of the religious fanaticism. Like the persecution of people just for their sexuality is despicable. But I can’t exactly hate him because his rigorous adherence to principle leads him to (almost) taking down some very powerful people who do, in fact, suck. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/23 "2019-04-10T19:26:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If you consider the High Sparrow a villain you also have to consider that Dani might also be one. She has a high purpose in freeing slaves, but she is really driven by a lust for power and revenge. And she is capable of extreme cruelty against her enemies, burning them alive, crucifying them, or sealing them in a vault to die slowly of starvation. Other characters that are thought of in emotional rather than logical ways (although I would quibble a bit about Dany. She’s only 2/3rds about entitlement and power grabs): Mirri Maz Dur - The “witch” that killed Drogo and Dany’s baby. She’s actually a hero that sacrificed her life in order to stop a tyrant. Drogo - Mass murdering slaver and rapist. Walder Frey - Risked everything, was betrayed, and then did what was needed in order to save his house. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/24 "2019-04-10T19:30:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Walder Frey - Risked everything, was betrayed, and then did what was needed in order to save his house. Yeah this right here. I’m all in for Team Stark, but honestly Robb Stark brought his fate on himself and I wasn’t really sad to see it delivered. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/25 "2019-04-10T19:43:24Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Other characters that are thought of in emotional rather than logical ways (although I would quibble a bit about Dany. She’s only 2/3rds about entitlement and power grabs): Of course, a lot of the appeal of GoT is that very few characters are entirely good or entirely evil. Even Jon, perhaps the purest good of the major characters, hanged a child (admittedly one that had killed him) and betrayed the trust of his lover. (As well, he my be insanely brave but he has the strategic sense of a brain-damaged opossum.) > [@](#): > > Mirri Maz Dur - The “witch” that killed Drogo and Dany’s baby. She’s actually a hero that sacrificed her life in order to stop a tyrant. Yes, someone whose troops raped her and slaughtered her innocent people. > [@](#): > > Drogo - Mass murdering slaver and rapist. Like all the Dothraki. The people of Westeros would quite rightly be appalled that Dani would unleash such people on them in her quest for power. The Iron Born are also professional rapists and thieves. Recruiting Yara and Theon for her forces wasn’t much better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/26 "2019-04-10T19:48:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course, a lot of the appeal of GoT is that very few characters are entirely good or entirely evil. Even Jon, perhaps the purest good of the major characters, hanged a child (admittedly one that had killed him) and betrayed the trust of his lover. (As well, he my be insanely brave but he has the strategic sense of a brain-damaged opossum.) > > Yes, someone whose troops raped her and slaughtered her innocent people. > > Like all the Dothraki. The people of Westeros would quite rightly be appalled that Dani would unleash such people on them in her quest for power. Book Jon is a solid strategist and tactician. Another weak point of the last couple of season has been the emphasis of awesome TV moments over solid and coherent story telling. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/27 "2019-04-10T20:16:39Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yeah this right here. I’m all in for Team Stark, but honestly Robb Stark brought his fate on himself and I wasn’t really sad to see it delivered. Roose Bolton as well provided nothing but rock solid advice throughout the first season of the show, it wasn’t until Robb and Catelynn fucked everyone over that he betrayed them. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/28 "2019-04-11T05:28:23Z")
I agree that I could never tell whether he was sincere or not, but that in the end it doesn’t matter, he’s still very much shades of grey. Book theorizing/talk: I always liked the theory that he was Howland Reed in disguise, though obviously that would take his story arc/theme in a far different direction, and take away from the whole ‘religious fanatics might be nice but they’re still crazy violent fanatics’ angle. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/29 "2019-04-11T08:24:56Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Roose Bolton is an evil fuck and his son is even worse, but their own personal atrocities pale in comparison to what was done in the name of the church. Roose’s personal motto was “a peaceful land, a quiet people.” You are vastly underestimating the evil the church did, and this is without holding any official power. It was literally supposed to be a parallel to the inquisition. To the worst parts of every Inquisition there has ever been, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/30 "2019-04-11T09:09:53Z")
Wasn’t he based, to some degree, on [Girolamo Savonarola](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola)? ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/31 "2019-04-11T12:21:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yeah this right here. I’m all in for Team Stark, but honestly Robb Stark brought his fate on himself and I wasn’t really sad to see it delivered. I actually feel the same way about Sansa Stark. If she hadn’t been so damned determined to play pretty pretty princess for that sick fuck Joffrey then there is a good chance most of the Stark clan would have escaped King’s Landing intact. Sansa fucked up and got her father killed and Rob fucked up and got his mother killed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/32 "2019-04-11T13:46:46Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I actually feel the same way about Sansa Stark. If she hadn’t been so damned determined to play pretty pretty princess for that sick fuck Joffrey then there is a good chance most of the Stark clan would have escaped King’s Landing intact. > > Sansa fucked up and got her father killed and Rob fucked up and got his mother killed. Sansa was a child, a naive child heavily influenced by romance culture. She make some huge, consequential mistakes, but I find it difficult to call her a villain. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/33 "2019-04-11T14:24:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sansa was a child, a naive child heavily influenced by romance culture. She make some huge, consequential mistakes, but I find it difficult to call her a villain. Fair enough, perhaps “villain” is a bridge too far. I still hold her responsible for the downfall of the Starks and I’m not sure if I should continue to hate her or thank her for being one of the instigating factors of a most fascinating story. GoT me feeling all conflicted. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/34 "2019-04-11T15:14:52Z")
I can’t tell you how many times I shouted, “You _stupid_ bint!” at Sansa during the earlier seasons. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/35 "2019-04-11T16:18:18Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Roose Bolton is an evil fuck and his son is even worse, but their own personal atrocities pale in comparison to what was done in the name of the church. Roose’s personal motto was “a peaceful land, a quiet people.” You are vastly underestimating the evil the church did, and this is without holding any official power. It was literally supposed to be a parallel to the inquisition. What evil did the church do? From what I remembered the evil that was done was parading the previous High Septon naked through the streets because he frequented whores, arresting Loras for sex outside of marriage, and mistreating its prisoners. As far as Game of Thrones characters that is not so bad, Dany crucifies and burns her enemies, Jon plotted to kill Mance Rayder in his tent during a parlay. No one is totally good or innocent. People don’t like the idea of theocracy because it works out so poorly in the real world, but in Westeros representative democracy is not on the table. Powerful people who actually care the slightest bit about the non aristocrats are few and far between in Westeros. The high sparrow cared about the little people more than anyone else on the show. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/36 "2019-04-11T16:19:43Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I actually feel the same way about Sansa Stark. If she hadn’t been so damned determined to play pretty pretty princess for that sick fuck Joffrey then there is a good chance most of the Stark clan would have escaped King’s Landing intact. > > Sansa fucked up and got her father killed and Rob fucked up and got his mother killed. What did Sansa do to get her father killed? She was just along for the ride and really did not make any real decisions until she choose to lie for Littlefinger about her aunt’s murder/ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/37 "2019-04-11T16:53:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What did Sansa do to get her father killed? She was just along for the ride and really did not make any real decisions until she choose to lie for Littlefinger about her aunt’s murder/ Agreed. Sansa Stark didn’t have the audiences’ knowledge of Joffrey. He was heir apparent, and their marriage was pre-arranged by the families, and yes, she did live in a bit of a fantasy world. Naive, sometimes painfully so, occasionally dumb, but neither her action nor inaction caused her father’s death. Joffrey was determined despite everyone, including his mother, counselling him otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/38 "2019-04-11T18:04:52Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I actually feel the same way about Sansa Stark. If she hadn’t been so damned determined to play pretty pretty princess for that sick fuck Joffrey then there is a good chance most of the Stark clan would have escaped King’s Landing intact. > > Sansa fucked up and got her father killed and Rob fucked up and got his mother killed. I can kinda see that sentiment with Sansa but I have a gentler take on it. Originally she was a dumb kid who just wanted to be queen, then she was acting out of a misguided sense of duty and self-preservation, but as the series wore on I thought she introduced some interesting thoughts about the balance between moral duty, leadership duty, and one’s own personal concerns. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/39 "2019-04-11T18:43:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What did Sansa do to get her father killed? She was just along for the ride and really did not make any real decisions until she choose to lie for Littlefinger about her aunt’s murder/ When Ned Stark decided to move against Cercei he made plans to get the Stark clan out of King’s Landing before the shit hit the fan. When Sansa found out they were leaving she was upset and went to Cercei and asked her to intervene. This is how Cercei found out what Ned was up to and allowed her to set the stage for the Stark family downfall. If she cared about her family just a little bit more than she cared about playing pretty pretty princess then her wolf and her father would still be alive. Ok, _MAYBE_ they would still be alive. All she had to do was keep her damn mouth shut and this would be a very different story. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288/40 "2019-04-11T19:03:54Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > If she cared about her family just a little bit more than she cared about playing pretty pretty princess then her wolf and her father would still be alive. Ok, _MAYBE_ they would still be alive. All she had to do was keep her damn mouth shut and this would be a very different story. Can’t pin it all on her. Papa was also largely to blame. _Cersei, let’s sit in this garden while I tell you that I know you’ve been shagging your brother and that everyone directly in line for the throne is illegitimate. I have proof, and I plan on going public with it soon. You should take precautions._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-high-sparrow-a-villain-got/832288.md?page=3)