# Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259 "2012-01-31T02:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/1 "2012-01-31T02:39:24Z")
Says Gary Greenberg in an Op-Ed in _The New York Times_. He [writes](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/opinion/the-dsms-troubled-revision.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper), “The human brain, after all, may be the most complex object in the universe.” He should know. After all, he is a psychotherapist who is writing a book on the forthcoming DSM-V, and, of course, he has a brain. I’m going to have to go with consciousness. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/2 "2012-01-31T02:42:27Z")
You’ll have to carefully define “object” and “complex” to get a meaningful answer. Obviously things like “two brains” and “the universe itself” are more complex than a brain, as would any organization of people using their brains, etc. Even though I understand what he’s getting at, I have to say the earth’s ecosystem is more complex – again, in no small part because it includes lots of things with brains. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/3 "2012-01-31T03:02:49Z")
The brains of the sentient life forms on the planet Xyksork are more complex. Sheesh, we don’t even know that we have the most complex brain on earth, much less the universe. Let’s just say that brains, and organs like them, are up there at the top. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/4 "2012-01-31T04:40:55Z")
The statement is anthropocentric, feel-good pap, and positively meaningless without defining what “complex” means. (For example, Wiktionary’s first definition for the adjective is “made up of multiple parts”. I’m pretty sure a combustion engine, an onion watch, or a space station have more individual parts than a brain, for example) ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/5 "2012-01-31T11:47:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The statement is anthropocentric, feel-good pap, and positively meaningless without defining what “complex” means. > (For example, Wiktionary’s first definition for the adjective is “made up of multiple parts”. I’m pretty sure a combustion engine, an onion watch, or a space station have more individual parts than a brain, for example) You haven’t defined what “multiple parts” means. Are cells individual parts? In which case a brain wins. Demanding definitions of every word is an easy, but not very useful, way of refuting all kinds of things. We can be reasonably certain the human brain is more complex than any other brains on Earth. We can also reasonably say the Earth’s ecosystem is not an “object”. Otherwise we could (as stated) include the interplay of the whole universe. I think it’s a perfectly reasonable statement to make, assuming you put aside possible alien races and don’t argue with the clearly-intended meaning. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/6 "2012-01-31T13:03:24Z")
“I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.” Emo Philips ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/7 "2012-01-31T13:27:30Z")
I think it’s reasonable to agree that it’s at least in the top tier of objects that we know about. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/8 "2012-01-31T13:30:10Z")
Yeah, that’s an important caveat - we don’t really know that much about what kind of brain-sized objects there might be in the universe - we can see a long way, but only to spot really bright and big things… most of which are not really that complicated, once you understand a little nuclear physics. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/9 "2012-01-31T13:37:30Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > You haven’t defined what “multiple parts” means. Are cells individual parts? In which case a brain wins. We have more skin cells than we do brain cells, so by that measure skin is more complex than brain. > [@](#): > > We can be reasonably certain the human brain is more complex than any other brains on Earth. How can we be certain of this? > [@](#): > > We can also reasonably say the Earth’s ecosystem is not an “object”. Otherwise we could (as stated) include the interplay of the whole universe. I agree that allowing the whole planet or universe to be an “object” trivializes the question. > [@](#): > > I think it’s a perfectly reasonable statement to make, assuming you put aside possible alien races and don’t argue with the clearly-intended meaning. I’m not sure I agree. I don’t see any reason why the brain couldn’t have a simpler structure than something that “accomplishes” less. Complexity isn’t necessarily a proxy for capability. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/10 "2012-01-31T13:42:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The brains of the sentient life forms on the planet Xyksork are more complex. > > Sheesh, we don’t even know that we have the most complex brain on earth, much less the universe. Let’s just say that brains, and organs like them, are up there at the top. Exactly my first thought. Human brains are the most complex? Hmmfff… Arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/11 "2012-01-31T13:58:20Z")
I don’t know, what about Rube Goldberg’s inventions? > **[Rube Goldberg Institute | Home](https://www.rubegoldberg.org/?page=gallery)** > > Welcome to the Rube Goldberg Institute. Learn more about the man, the machines and the ways you can experience Rube Goldberg through the Institute’s resources. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/12 "2012-01-31T14:07:39Z")
This is one of those topics that is near and dear to my heart. I hope to go back and get another PhD but this time in cognitive science. The word ‘complex’ is difficult to define relative to such things. We know, for example, the late and lamented space shuttles were some of the most complex machines ever created. But the brain is not made of a zillion different kinds of parts each fashioned to work with the others. It is made up of primarily two different kinds of cells: neurons and glial cells. That doesn’t sound very complex if we apply the space shuttle analogy to it. However, the network of these cells in the human brain is remarkably complex. The interacting portions of the neurons, the synapses, are approximately 100 trillion by count in an average human brain [CITE](http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.ne.11.030188.002231) and that sounds rather complex to me. But, it is a rather meaningless statement out of any context. I wonder how many synapses are found in the larger brains of dolphins. The fact that consciousness is generated by this mechanism is rather extraordinary when you think about it. But, then again if this were not true then you wouldn’t be thinking about it, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/13 "2012-01-31T14:09:31Z")
Well, it’s my second favourite organ. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/14 "2012-01-31T14:13:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I’m going to have to go with consciousness. By the way, what was this statement supposed to mean? Seems out of place. > [@dataguy](#): > > “I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.” > Emo Philips My brain: it’s my second-favorite organ. Woody Allen ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/15 "2012-01-31T14:33:42Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I agree that allowing the whole planet or universe to be an “object” trivializes the question. I agree that allowing the whole planet to be an “object” trivializes the question. I’m not sure I agree about the universe, though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/16 "2012-01-31T14:51:04Z")
“Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the bridge. Call that job satisfaction, 'cause I don’t.” - Marvin the Paranoid Android What is interesting is that scientists have reported that the Elephant’s brain is over the human one in complexity and then we have the ones that would thank us for all the fish. 🙂 > **[Elephant brain. Part I: gross morphology, functions, comparative anatomy, and...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16782503/)** > > We report morphological data on brains of four African, Loxodonta africana, and three Asian elephants, Elephas maximus, and compare findings to literature. Brains exhibit a gyral pattern more complex and with more numerous gyri than in primates,... > [@](#): > > Brains exhibit a gyral pattern more complex and with more numerous gyri than in primates, humans included, and in carnivores, but less complex than in cetaceans. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/17 "2012-01-31T15:46:32Z")
Sorry guys, the upper bound on how provably complex things are is _really, shamefully low_ in an information theoretic sense. Embarrassingly low. Above that, I think the technical term is “shit’s complicated.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/18 "2012-01-31T17:33:29Z")
Why is the human brain one object? It is an organ, but it is made of many smaller areas which are made of smaller tissues and cells. Where do you draw the line with ‘object’. A skyscraper (with all the equipment inside of it) is more complex than a brain. But because we designed the skyscraper and the stuff inside it, it makes more sense to us. The brain wasn’t designed with any intent of trying to make it easy for us to study it by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/19 "2012-01-31T17:38:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A skyscraper (with all the equipment inside of it) is more complex than a brain. I seriously, seriously doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/20 "2012-01-31T17:41:51Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I seriously, seriously doubt that. I don’t. If you add in all the varied mechanical and electrical devices within an occupied skyscraper it would be more complex than a human brain. But like I said, the brain was never designed to be understood from the outside. Our technologies are. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=2)