# Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259 "2012-01-31T02:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/21 "2012-01-31T17:43:11Z")
If you consider the entire internet (including all servers, applications, and information on it) as a single object, perhaps it is more complex than a single human brain? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/22 "2012-01-31T18:15:34Z")
Nuclear power plants have lots of buttons. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/23 "2012-01-31T22:19:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The statement is anthropocentric, feel-good pap, and positively meaningless without defining what “complex” means. > (For example, Wiktionary’s first definition for the adjective is “made up of multiple parts”. I’m pretty sure a combustion engine, an onion watch, or a space station have more individual parts than a brain, for example) 😕 Are you aware that brain has about 100 billion neurons (\*) and even more glial cells? I’ll agree that “complex” is extremely ambiguous. Wiktionary’s definition doesn’t help since “parts” themselves have “parts.” But the idea that a human brain is less complex (or has “fewer individual parts”) than a combustion engine seems quite wrong. I think a single human neuron (or even a pancreatic cell in a chipmunk) is “more complex” than a combustion engine. Just for starters, compare the chemical reaction called “gasoline combustion” with the one called “meiosis.” (\* - ETA: And neurons average thousands of synapses each. And most synapses uses multiple transmitter types.) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/24 "2012-01-31T22:37:57Z")
Wikipedia has a [list of animals by number of neurons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons). We’re not at the top of the list. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/25 "2012-01-31T23:26:04Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Wikipedia has a [list of animals by number of neurons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons). We’re not at the top of the list. Cerebrum-to-body ratio is a better indicator of intelligence, though still too crude. However [this page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio) includes basal ganglia, etc. as “brain” so small birds rank higher than humans. Is it not disconcerting to realize we need more “brain power” to manipulate the 1000’s of muscles involved in walking than we need to form our political opinions? :dubious: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/26 "2012-02-01T03:14:42Z")
My vote is for Vulcan brains: very difficult to transplant without expert advice. Anyway, human brains aren’t really much different from other mammals (Nixon and Brezhnev aside). We have the ability to reason, and we have the ability to use speech. The ability to reason enabled us to first start thinking of our surroundings and why we are here. The ability to speak enabled us to ask each other the same question and thousands of generations did the same. When we discovered the ability to permanently record information on stones, papyrus, etc. and share with future generations this cumulation of recorded knowledge over successive generations allowed us to build our knowledge base and propel ourselves well above other primates. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/27 "2012-02-01T03:36:03Z")
Seriously, this is idea that “the human brain is the most complex thing in the universe” is the worst kind of masturbatory self-aggrandizing crap. This is a nonsensical distinction for all the reasons already mentioned, on top of the insane hyperbole of pronouncing the entire universe and everything in it inferior to us. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/28 "2012-02-01T03:39:04Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > My vote is for Vulcan brains: very difficult to transplant without expert advice. Thank you for bringing balance to the universe by getting that reference out of the way in such a subtle and elegant manner. … Just so I can get a grasp on the numbers, if we use the best billions and billions estimate for connections and wiring (let’s leave aside any functionality of emitting various neurotransmitters for the moment), how large would an Intel Branium be to achieve the same general number? I get that this is somewhat (very?) meaningless because the connections are vastly different (I assume) and because I’m trying to use something that I really have no conception of (scale of modern CPU architecture) to understand something I have … well, you get the point. But if it would take a CPU the size of a, what, Buick, small moon (that’s no moon!), or a breadbox, it would be an interesting insight into one conception of complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/29 "2012-02-01T04:41:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Are you aware that brain has about 100 billion neurons (\*) and even more glial cells? > > I’ll agree that “complex” is extremely ambiguous. Wiktionary’s definition doesn’t help since “parts” themselves have “parts.” > > But the idea that a human brain is less complex (or has “fewer individual parts”) than a combustion engine seems quite wrong. I think a single human neuron (or even a pancreatic cell in a chipmunk) is “more complex” than a combustion engine. Just for starters, compare the chemical reaction called “gasoline combustion” with the one called “meiosis.” > > (\* - ETA: And neurons average thousands of synapses each. And most synapses uses multiple transmitter types.) I was thinking more in macro terms (e.g. glands, functional areas, nerve bundles) than micro. But if you want to go by cell count, fine by me: a whale’s skin then is dozens of times more complex than the human brain. I for one welcome our new Cetacean overlords. And don’t get me started on the Internet. Why, the porn flick-to-cell ratio alone ! 😛 I stand by my assertion that the statement is meaningless. > [@](#): > > Is it not disconcerting to realize we need more “brain power” to manipulate the 1000’s of muscles involved in walking than we need to form our political opinions? :dubious: :smack: When you’ve heard some of those opinions, not really 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/30 "2012-02-01T04:41:48Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > Seriously, this is idea that “the human brain is the most complex thing in the universe” is the worst kind of masturbatory self-aggrandizing crap. This is a nonsensical distinction for all the reasons already mentioned, on top of the insane hyperbole of pronouncing the entire universe and everything in it inferior to us. The guy writing the NYT article was making the point that diagnosing maladies of the human brain is a lot more complicated than diagnosing a broken bone. The phrase is arguably mildly hyperbolic, but he wasn’t exactly weighing in on the universe’s inferiority to us, or any other silly thing you seem to be projecting onto the phrase. Furthermore, for some choices of definitions, the brain probably is the most complicated object in the universe. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/31 "2012-02-01T06:04:28Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > Furthermore, for some choices of definitions, the brain probably is the most complicated object in the universe. Deal with it. My brain is probably the most complicated brain in the universe because I know that the brain is not the most complicated object in the universe. Deal with that. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/32 "2012-02-01T06:12:31Z")
How do ya figure? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/33 "2012-02-01T06:54:08Z")
I know that you believe that the brain probably is the most complicated object in the universe. I know that you, the brain, objects, and the universe exist. Shall I bring out Ockham’s razor? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/34 "2012-02-01T06:57:44Z")
If you just count parts, the human brain already has lost. If you are talking about the complexity of the operation of the brain, then we don’t know. We are just assuming it’s really complicated because we don’t know how it works yet. We might find it to be deceptively simple some day. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/35 "2012-02-01T07:04:44Z")
Mmmmmm. Brains. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/36 "2012-02-01T07:07:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I know that you believe that the brain probably is the most complicated object in the universe. I know that you, the brain, objects, and the universe exist. Shall I bring out Ockham’s razor? The question of how complicated the brain is is definitional (as I said). I have no idea what you are getting at. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/37 "2012-02-01T07:19:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If you just count parts, the human brain already has lost. If you are talking about the complexity of the operation of the brain, then we don’t know. We are just assuming it’s really complicated because we don’t know how it works yet. We might find it to be deceptively simple some day. Surely “just counting parts” is to miss the point entirely of the statement addressed in the OP. The brain is a highly organized and dense computational apparatus that forms long, coherent internal narratives of infinite variety. Cataloging and understanding its behavior has proven far more difficult, I would argue, than any other scientific pursuit. In physics (my field), we can catalog and model very accurately vast physical regions and aspects of the universe, including objects far smaller and far larger than the brain, including objects far denser, and with far more “parts.” We can model these “complex” things with equations that are relatively _exceedingly_ simple and accurate compared to ways we have learned of modeling a human personality. I think it is certainly fair to argue, given some reasonable definitions, that the human brain is the most _densely_ complicated (known) object in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/38 "2012-02-01T07:26:48Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > Surely “just counting parts” is to miss the point entirely of the statement addressed in the OP. Counting the parts was covered earlier in the thread. That was a recap. > [@](#): > > The brain is a highly organized and dense computational apparatus that forms long, coherent internal narratives of infinite variety. Cataloging and understanding its behavior has proven far more difficult, I would argue, than any other scientific pursuit. In physics (my field), we can catalog and model very accurately vast physical regions and aspects of the universe, including objects far smaller and far larger than the brain, including objects far denser, and with far more “parts.” We can model these “complex” things with equations that are relatively _exceedingly_ simple and accurate compared to ways we have learned of modeling a human personality. I think it is certainly fair to argue, given some reasonable definitions, that the human brain is the most _densely_ complicated (known) object in the universe. I’ll go along with the density part. But since we don’t know how the brain works to any useful level of detail, then we don’t know how complicated it is. Our ego tells us it must be incredibly complicated since we haven’t figured it out yet. But things don’t always turn out that way. We don’t have a real argument here. I think it’s incredibly complex. But neither of us can prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/39 "2012-02-01T07:42:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But since we don’t know how the brain works to any useful level of detail, then we don’t know how complicated it is. And we don’t know how the universe, in any sense of the word, works. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/40 "2012-02-01T07:50:11Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > And we don’t know how the universe, in any sense of the word, works. Same problem there. So comparing human brains and the universe is more than a little pointless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=3)