# Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259 "2012-01-31T02:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/81 "2012-02-01T20:58:32Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Again, that statement undermines your claim rather than supporting it. The human brain can grow, adapt, organize itself, and so forth. Library books do not print or organize themselves. Rather, they require external agents in order to do so. > > “It’s unfair!” one might say. “Libraries don’t have that ability, so if you want to consider these data points, then we should add a printing press and the Dewey Decimal System to the library too!” Once again though, that misses the point. These are NOT part of the library itself, and the library doesn’t get to rack up points based on features that it does not have. (As an aside, I’d like to point out that the Dewey decimal system is both obsolete and inadequate. It merely classifies books; the texts themselves must still be organized by human agents. Additionally, it has been mostly replaced by the Library of Congress classification system, so this reference is a few decades out of date.) The press & Dewey thing was a joke. The lack of senescence wasn’t. The very self-growth, self-organization, regeneration features of the brain also cause it to go haywire in all kinds of ways, and the older it gets the more it’s likely to start sprouting tumors or fail miserably at its self-repairs which in turn impede its functions. That seems like a design flaw to me. On the other hand a book’s a book, and will remain a book as long as it isn’t handled by kids with jelly fingers or those barbarians who break book spines. That being said, we’re starting to veer ever so further off topic since this isn’t about judging “worth”. What I was trying to convey through bad jokes is that I would rule out the process by which the brain forms and repairs itself because it has precious little bearing on what the brain \*is \*or does, how it performs its various functions, or its level of complexity from an information theory standpoint. It’s extremely cool, but it’s besides the point - the complexity of the brain as a functional object, such as it is, would be the same if brains just popped into existence or had to be rigged out of pink plastic by Chinese kids for 6 cents an hour. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/82 "2012-02-01T21:16:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That being said, we’re starting to veer ever so further off topic since this isn’t about judging “worth”. > What I was trying to convey through bad jokes is that I would rule out the process by which the brain forms and repairs itself because it has precious little bearing on what the brain \*is \*or does, how it performs its various functions, or its level of complexity from an information theory standpoint. It’s extremely cool, but it’s besides the point - the complexity of the brain as a functional object, such as it is, would be the same if brains just popped into existence or had to be rigged out of pink plastic by Chinese kids for 6 cents an hour. Yes, the formation and repair is found all over biology. The brain is different from a pancreas. And you could just use one chinese kid in a room ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/83 "2012-02-01T21:36:28Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The press & Dewey thing was a joke. Okay, so we can agree that libraries lack these incredibly complex features. Good. > [@](#): > > The lack of senescence wasn’t. The very self-growth, self-organization, regeneration features of the brain also cause it to go haywire in all kinds of ways, and the older it gets the more it’s likely to start sprouting tumors or fail miserably at its self-repairs which in turn impede its functions. That seems like a design flaw to me. On the other hand a book’s a book, and will remain a book as long as it isn’t handled by kids with jelly fingers or those barbarians who break book spines. It certainly is a case wherein the design is not perfect. That doesn’t make it less than complex, though. A wristwatch that loses a few seconds per day is still a highly complex mechanism. Ditto for one that eventually runs down. So what if books don’t malfunction in the same way? That doesn’t make them any more complex. By that logic, one may as well claim that a rock is more complex than a tree. Remember, we’re not talking about whether an object is immune to damage or malfunctions. We’re talking about how complex they are. Desktop computers are vastly more complex than pocket calculators are, and we don’t get to deny this simply because there are more myriad ways in which they can fail. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/84 "2012-02-01T21:39:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What I was trying to convey through bad jokes is that I would rule out the process by which the brain forms and repairs itself because it has precious little bearing on what the brain \*is \*or does, how it performs its various functions, or its level of complexity from an information theory standpoint. It’s extremely cool, but it’s besides the point - the complexity of the brain as a functional object, such as it is, would be the same if brains just popped into existence or had to be rigged out of pink plastic by Chinese kids for 6 cents an hour. They have EVERYTHING to do with what the brain is and does. The brain’s ability to grow and organize itself are fundamental to functions such as cognition, learning, and memory recall. One shouldn’t ignore these features simply because they don’t exist in most man-made objects – or because they don’t support one’s desired conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/85 "2012-02-01T21:41:25Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > In order to answer the question in the thread title we need to talk about objects within the universe, of course, and the universe itself, and, even, simulation of the universe. Nonsense. You can talk about objects within the universe without talking about the universe itself. It’s like talking about human organs or a computer chip. You don’t need to describe the entire computer or an entire human body in order to meaningfully discuss the complexity of these singular objects. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/86 "2012-02-01T21:44:54Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The brain’s ability to grow and organize itself are fundamental to functions such as cognition, learning, and memory recall. I find that highly arguable. It’s like saying the type of paper is fundamental to the content of a book. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/87 "2012-02-01T21:49:18Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Nonsense. You can talk about objects within the universe without talking about the universe itself. It’s like talking about human organs or a computer chip. You don’t need to describe the entire computer or an entire human body in order to meaningfully discuss the complexity of these singular objects. How would a simulation of objects within the universe be different from a simulation of the universe itself? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/88 "2012-02-01T22:05:13Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How would a simulation of objects within the universe be different from a simulation of the universe itself? How do you do either one within the universe? Actually, there are techniques, but this discussion is getting out there. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/89 "2012-02-01T22:32:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Actually, there are techniques, but this discussion is getting out there. What are the techinques? Could you do a simulation of the universe where your brain _does_ control mental faculties? In order to find the supraknown one must find the unknown. In other words, understand that which you thought was pretty much a given. > [@Jragon](#): > > I think you’re saying that my brain only controls my mental faculties, and not yours and everyone elses. But I thought that was pretty much a given. Oh, it’s not pretty much a given. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/90 "2012-02-01T22:38:18Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What are the techinques? Could you do a simulation of the universe where your brain _does_ control mental faculties? In order to find the supraknown one must find the unknown. In other words, understand that which you thought was pretty much a given. Since it’s a simulation you don’t have to maintain a model of the whole thing all at once. It’s essentially dynamic data compression/decompression on demand. Plus the fact that you don’t have to duplicate all the identical components. So you can’t simulate the universe in real time, but you can simulate the whole thing. It will take a lot of resources just to do that, but it won’t use up the entire universe. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/91 "2012-02-01T23:30:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It will take a lot of resources just to do that, but it won’t use up the entire universe. What about multiple simulations interacting with each other? Much like human brains on earth supposedly interacting with each other? Could you do a simulation of the universe where your brain _does_ control mental faculties… in another simulation? :eek: How would you know which simulation was the most complex? Does this mean that to the question “Is the simulation of the human brain in a simulated universe the most complex object in universe?” the answer is yes? What about a simulation of these simulations? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/92 "2012-02-01T23:40:04Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What about multiple simulations interacting with each other? Much like human brains on earth supposedly interacting with each other? Could you do a simulation of the universe where your brain _does_ control mental faculties… in another simulation? :eek: How would you know which simulation was the most complex? Does this mean that to the question “Is the simulation of the human brain in a simulated universe the most complex object in universe?” the answer is yes? What about a simulation of these simulations? Alright, definitions again. Simulation can mean different things. Are you emulating a brain, or just simulating in the sense of producing the same results? And yeah, once brains get emulated, simulated, or whatever, there’s gonna be some wild recursion that can occur. Anyway, I don’t think brains are all that complex process wise, as compared to the biological operation. I think the way to get to AI in whatever form is to simulate the operation of the brain in the sense of producing the same results, then working back towards the biological implementation. The other way, modeling the biological functions of the brain first is going to take too many resources. Everyone who has achieved AI is free to call me wrong. The rest better engage in rational argument. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/93 "2012-02-02T00:01:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why not? Because the brain is complicated. No one has found a good model yet, for the reasons I explained in my previous post. > [@Kozmik](#): > > Wittgenstein probably would have written that. I understand all fifty words I typed in this post because I don’t understand all fifty-six words you typed that are in this post. The question is: > Do you understand all one hundred six words in this post? No. > [@Kozmik](#): > > What about the universe? Wa 'bout it ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/94 "2012-02-02T00:23:56Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > Wa 'bout it Is the universe, in any sense of the word, more complex than the brain? ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/95 "2012-02-02T00:30:45Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Is the universe, in any sense of the word, more complex than the brain? By any reasonable definition I can think of, the universe is surely more complicated than the brain, since the brain is part of the universe. This is why I was careful to throw around the word “density” in my previous postings. Furthermore, while the universe might be more complicated than the brain, it is only so by virtue of being a sum of complicated parts, not because it itself, like the brain, has an emergent property making it as a whole more complicated than the sum of its parts. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/96 "2012-02-02T00:34:05Z")
I don’t think that just because we don’t understand it, we can just assume its the most complex. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/97 "2012-02-02T00:46:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t think that just because we don’t understand it, we can just assume its the most complex. I’m not sure I’ve noticed anyone here arguing from such a position. It’s not as though people are just throwing up their hands and saying “welp, beats me! Must be most complex evar!” ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/98 "2012-02-02T01:00:29Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > I think we “understand” weather not directly because we understand atoms, but because we understand the interplay of sunlight, thermodynamics, chemical reactions, evaporation, geography, and the composition of the atmosphere. Do we “understand” the universe not directly because we understand the brain, but because we understand the interplay of brains? ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/99 "2012-02-02T03:12:51Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Do we “understand” the universe not directly because we understand the brain, but because we understand the interplay of brains? The universe is not made of brains. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/100 "2012-02-02T03:27:33Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > The universe is not made of brains. Yes, but it might be made of branes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=6)