# Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259 "2012-01-31T02:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/121 "2012-02-02T19:11:08Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > No. [Now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14730832&postcount=94) you do. > [@iamnotbatman](#): > > I think the above words are crystal clear. Not yet. > [@](#): > > The guy writing the NYT article was making the point that diagnosing maladies of the human brain is a lot more complicated than diagnosing a broken bone. The phrase is arguably mildly hyperbolic, but he wasn’t exactly weighing in on the universe’s inferiority to us, or any other silly thing you seem to be projecting onto the phrase. Furthermore, for some choices of definitions, the brain probably is the most complicated _ **known** _ object in the _ **known** _ universe. Deal with it. Today _The New York Times_ published [some letters](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/02/opinion/wrangling-over-a-manual-of-mental-disorders.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) in response to Gary Greenberg’s Op-Ed. One letter, written by Tamara Lipshie, is particularly relevant to the question in the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/122 "2012-02-02T19:24:49Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > My favorite logical fallacy: _appeal to LSD experience_ > I would make great use of it if I could only put my point into words 😉 Well, writing one word 4.000 times seems to work for most people. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/123 "2012-02-02T19:54:06Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Not yet. Doesn’t hurt, although I’d argue that second caveat is even more superfluous than the first (one shouldn’t have to add such adjectives ever; “universe” (singular) is generally synonymous with “known universe”, by definition). ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/124 "2012-02-02T20:21:32Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > “universe” (singular) is generally synonymous with “known universe”, by definition). What about “unknown universe”? > [@iamnotbatman](#): > > since it’s pretty obvious we can only speak to what we know It’s not so obvious, though, that we can know that which [can](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14729466&postcount=71) be known. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/125 "2012-02-02T20:33:05Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What about “unknown universe”? Was 'bout it? > [@Kozmik](#): > > It’s not so obvious, though, that we can know that which [can](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14729466&postcount=71) be known. Sure… (not sure what your point is though) ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/126 "2012-02-02T20:37:14Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > Was 'bout it? Is “universe” (singular) generally synonymous with “unknown universe”? ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/127 "2012-02-02T21:03:36Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Is “universe” (singular) generally synonymous with “unknown universe”? I’m not sure why you can’t appeal to common sense here: If someone says “VY Canis Majoris is the largest star in the universe”, anyone who isn’t purposefully trying to be annoying understands what is meant: “VY Canis Majoris is the largest [known] star in the [known] universe.” Which can further be unravelled to: “VY Canis Majoris is the largest star we have ever had the delight in being lucky enough to observe when we look as far and wide as we can in the area around us.” So no, “universe” is not generally synonymous with “unknown universe,” but of course it depends on the context. If we are having a discussion about the “universe of possible universes”, then the word has a larger scope. But you can see even in that phrase the word is being used in two different ways, depending on intelligent contextual interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/128 "2012-02-02T21:21:33Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > [QUOTE=JThunder] > The OP asked whether the human brain is the most complex object in the universe. No, the OP asked “Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe?” [/QUOTE] Fella, do you honestly not understand that those two statements are equivalent? Do you really think that you’re drawing a meaningful distinction here? Do you not see how muddled such thinking is? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/129 "2012-02-02T21:30:05Z")
**Kozmik** , you’re really ruining your own thread here, which was starting to get interesting. Why don’t you back up a little and tell us what you’d like know in less ambiguous terms. Keep in mind nobody can provide meaningful answers about the unknown universe. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/130 "2012-02-03T04:01:10Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > **dorsk188** , the only caveat I would add to [the post you are responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14727674&postcount=30) is adding the word “known” between “complicated” and “object”. I don’t think this caveat is really necessary for the rest of us here, since it’s pretty obvious we can only speak to what we know, but for you, sure, if it helps. I’ll try not to beat a dead horse here, but I think that caveat makes a world of difference. When you say: “X is probably the most Y object”, I took it to mean X is certainly the most Y of all known objects, and probably the most Y of unknown objects. The say one might say: “This gold deposit is probably the biggest in the world” not because you can’t assess the known gold mines, but because you are speculating about all unknown deposits, as well. If you’re saying: X is probably the most Y of any known object, but we can’t speculate about unknown objects, that’s a far more limited claim. It really changes the statement if “probably” is qualifying the supremacy of X among the currently known or its _true universal supremacy_. That’s why I object to the invocation of the universe as a context, because it implies the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/131 "2012-02-03T05:45:16Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > If we are having a discussion about the “universe of possible universes”, then the word has a larger scope. Finally we have a provisional definition of “universe”. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Otherwise we could (as stated) include the interplay of the whole universe. Yes! > [@TriPolar](#): > > **Kozmik** , you’re really ruining your own thread here, which was starting to get interesting. Why don’t you back up a little and tell us what you’d like know in less ambiguous terms. Keep in mind nobody can provide meaningful answers about the unknown universe. Ok. I know that Gary Greenberg made the following claim: “The human brain, after all, may be the most complex object in the universe.”. So I ask the question: Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe? I know that you and other posters have sought to answer the question, and not merely argue for the human brain or, even, argue against the human brain, for that matter. In response to Gary Greenberg’s Op-Ed, Tamara Lipshie wrote a letter to the editor which was published yesterday in _The New York Times_. While she is not responding directly to Gary Greenberg’s claim or, even, quoting his claim, I find that Tamara Lipshie’s claim is the antithesis of Gary Greenberg’s claim. Here is Tamara Lipshie’s claim: > [@](#): > > While it is true that illnesses such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are not infectious diseases caused by a single pathogen, they are as “real” as hypertension and diabetes, and similarly complicated in terms of causes, symptoms and treatment. Here is Kozmik’s claim: > [@](#): > > While it is true that emergent properties such as consciousness are not phenomena caused by a single brain, they are as “real” as the earth, the solar system, the galaxy and the universe, and similarly complicated in terms of causes, symptoms and understanding. I have an announcement to make. A poster found an argument that would lead one to answer yes to the question “Is the human brain the most complex object in the universe?”. I will link to the post that contains the argument. I won’t link to the post yet, though I will give a hint. We’ve already defined “universe”. We still haven’t defined “human brain”, “complex”, or “object”. Once we have defined “human brain”, “complex”, and “object” like we’ve defined “universe” then I will post a link to the argument that the poster found. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/132 "2012-02-03T06:12:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Spoken like a man who’s never taken heroic doses of LSD. 🙂 This. Kids these days, and I admit to protecting my own kids from the details, have no idea just how fucked up Mom and Dad got. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/133 "2012-02-03T06:21:14Z")
ETA: Which was “seriously.” But it was the 60s and 70s and allowances should be made. But don’t touch that shit yourselves. You saw how your parents (grandparents?) turned out. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/134 "2012-02-03T06:23:58Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > ETA: Which was “seriously.” But it was the 60s and 70s and allowances should be made. But don’t touch that shit yourselves. You saw how your parents (grandparents?) turned out. Hey! It was an accident. I had no idea that stuff was acid. I thought it was mescaline. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/135 "2012-02-03T07:12:43Z")
By chance I just started rereading Gribbin’s _Deep Simplicity_. From the Introduction: > [@](#): > > … Indeed, we may be the most complex things there are in the Universe. … [a star] is simpler than a human being because gravity crushes any structure out of existence. And that is why science can tell us more about the behaviour of atoms and the internal workings of the stars than it can about the way people behave. One can use semantics to argue the question away, but if one is more reasonable one will admit that human brain (or Earth life more generally) is the most complex thing we know. One criterion would be to imagine how big a book it would take to explain something. I used to work with million-dollar mainframes whose schematics, even if augmented with semiconductor textbooks, occupied a single shelf in a bookcase. A single shelf couldn’t contain what is known about human brain, let alone what is unknown. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/136 "2012-02-03T07:25:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > By chance I just started rereading Gribbin’s _Deep Simplicity_. From the Introduction: > > One can use semantics to argue the question away, but if one is more reasonable one will admit that human brain (or Earth life more generally) is the most complex thing we know. > > One criterion would be to imagine how big a book it would take to explain something. I used to work with million-dollar mainframes whose schematics, even if augmented with semiconductor textbooks, occupied a single shelf in a bookcase. A single shelf couldn’t contain what is known about human brain, let alone what is unknown. Ok, that’s reasonable. But wouldn’t an entire human be a more complex object than just a human brain? I can’t see a reasonable definition for ‘object’ applied to a human brain that does’nt apply to an entire human. And despite our slightly more advanced brains, couldn’t some other animal be more complex than a human? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/137 "2012-02-03T07:38:35Z")
**Tripolar** , now the thread is back to getting interesting. I went back through the entire thread and here’s what I’ve found: > [@iamnotbatman](#): > > It seems to follow relatively simple rules. Yes, the universe seems to follow relatively simple rules. The human brain, though, seems to follow even simpler rules. > [@TimeWinder](#): > > Obviously things like “two brains” and “the universe itself” are more complex than a brain Obviously “the universe itself” is more complex than a brain. However, that “two brains” are more complex than a brain is not so obvious. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/138 "2012-02-03T07:44:21Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Yes, the universe seems to follow relatively simple rules. The human brain, though, seems to follow even simpler rules. Oh? What rules are those? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/139 "2012-02-03T07:50:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Obviously “the universe itself” is more complex than a brain. However, that “two brains” are more complex than a brain is not so obvious. What reasonable definition of ‘object’ would apply to two brains? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259/140 "2012-02-03T08:11:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What reasonable definition of ‘object’ would apply to two brains? Ask **iamnotbatman** : > [@iamnotbatman](#): > > leaving aside putting multiple brains together and calling them a single object [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-human-brain-the-most-complex-object-in-the-universe/611259.md?page=8)