# Is the idea of God enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053 "2009-02-09T14:17:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/61 "2009-02-10T00:44:06Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Providing you’re positive you know the truth. Well, we don’t _know_ there isn’t a pile of money waiting for us in some Nigerian bank, just waiting for us to send our trustworthy email friend $1000 to free it up for us… …so clearly we should be telling everybody to hand over their credit card numbers as quickly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/62 "2009-02-10T01:30:08Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Interesting. What would you do differently? I think it would affect my sense of purpose (as opposed to sense of futility) and deprived of a sense of meaning or purpose to any of my behaviors I would cease to care what I did, to a major extent. That, in turn, would probably have some effect on my actual behaviors, although I can’t give you any specific predictions. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/63 "2009-02-10T04:33:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d hope that no one would be dumb enough to buy into something which is acknowledged as just an idea, but I rather suspect they would. But why is it dumb? As long as you’re not believing that said idea is “real” the way the Arctic Ocean is real, taking the idea into your heart and drawing strength and inspiration from it might just be the smartest thing you ever did. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/64 "2009-02-10T04:36:24Z")
> [@MichaelJohnBertrand](#): > > But why is it dumb? As long as you’re not believing that said idea is “real” the way the Arctic Ocean is real, taking the idea into your heart and drawing strength and inspiration from it might just be the smartest thing you ever did. What kind of “strength” and “inspiration” do you think people are going to take from an evil fictional creature like God ? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/65 "2009-02-10T04:42:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. First, because there isn’t a worthwhile amount of good about the idea to preserve; it’s an overwhelmingly destructive force. Second, because part of the point of God and religion is believing in delusions. > > **(snip)** > > That’s all it is anyway. An evil, stupid idea. And one in which it’s followers have placed a great deal of investment in being real. Admitting that he’s a lie removes the point of the whole thing for most people. You can’t threaten or bribe people with a God no one actually believes in, or use him to excuse tyranny and atrocity. > **(snip)** > As for God; God is wholly fictional. A claim about objective reality that was made up out of nothing. And it’s a horrifyingly destructive fiction that the vast majority of it’s followers take dead seriously, because to them there’s no point to it if he’s not real. > > **(snip)** > > Of course it can hurt. God ISN’T real, but the idea of God hurts people all the time. I’m sorry if this sounds rude, but I didn’t want you thinking I was ignoring your points and I don’t know a better way of expressing this. I don’t think I can continue this debate with you, because I think you are too emotionally involved to be objective. Are you a former theist? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/66 "2009-02-10T04:45:48Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Agreed. Stuffing and mounting God, taxidermy-style, in a gilded casket labeled ‘Orthodoxy’, doesn’t seem to have accomplished anything positive. The image of Jesus locked in a trunk in the back of some church somewhere, bound and gagged, and only brought out on special occasions, and NEVER EVER being allowed to speak, keeps springing into my head. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/67 "2009-02-10T13:44:53Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You’re not the _only_ one who stated it, but you _ **did** _ state it nonetheless. Passing the buck like that is really weak. if it’s your statement, you should support it - if you’re not prepared or able to support it, you should never have asserted it. Especially here. Ok I can play that too, here are the instructions: [QUOTE=Deuteronomy 4:29] But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [/QUOTE] Now that is the Word and Wisdom of God, please don’t counter with wisdom of man, it just can’t stand. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/68 "2009-02-10T14:11:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Now that is the Word and Wisdom of God, please don’t counter with wisdom of man, it just can’t stand. That’s your idea of “wisdom” ? A false statement from a book of myths written by primitives ? And the “wisdom of man” stands up FAR better than the “wisdom” of God. That’s why these days religion has been forced more and more to restructure itself to speak only on matters science can’t yet prove. Because the “wisdom” of God has virtually always been proven wrong when actually looked into. One of the distinguishing features of religion is that it’s relentlessly wrong; it fails, it errs, it outright deceives. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/69 "2009-02-10T14:27:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Ok I can play that too, here are the instructions: > Now that is the Word and Wisdom of God, please don’t counter with wisdom of man, it just can’t stand. They truly got to you early, didn’t they? “It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” -I Cor 1:21 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/70 "2009-02-10T15:11:53Z")
I have no reason to think god is anything \*\*\*but \*\*\*an idea, and it gives me that much more incentive to do the right thing. There’s no one watching over **any** of us so we need to take care of each other. This is all there is, so we should try to get it right. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/71 "2009-02-10T17:09:32Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I have no reason to think god is anything \*\*\*but \*\*\*an idea, and it gives me that much more incentive to do the right thing. There’s no one watching over **any** of us so we need to take care of each other. This is all there is, so we should try to get it right. Yup. No take-backs, no do-overs, no ctrl-Z on life. It’s us naked beach apes against a completely apathetic universe. Huddle close and watch each other’s backs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/72 "2009-02-10T18:07:57Z")
> [@MichaelJohnBertrand](#): > > But why is it dumb? As long as you’re not believing that said idea is “real” the way the Arctic Ocean is real, taking the idea into your heart and drawing strength and inspiration from it might just be the smartest thing you ever did. Things like honesty and thrift and virtue aren’t real, but are good to believe in. What use is God? The idea gives people moral (or immoral) values to live by without having to think about. It makes them feel the creator of the universe is on their side, either against another country or another football team. It gives them license to do all sorts of stuff, some good and some bad, without worrying if they are the right things to do. Maybe people can get behind the real ideas, and forget the god one, because if they really accept god as just an idea they would have to critically examine what kind of idea it is. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/73 "2009-02-10T18:45:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Things like honesty and thrift and virtue aren’t real, but are good to believe in. What use is God? The idea gives people moral (or immoral) values to live by without having to think about. It makes them feel the creator of the universe is on their side, either against another country or another football team. It gives them license to do all sorts of stuff, some good and some bad, without worrying if they are the right things to do. Maybe people can get behind the real ideas, and forget the god one, because if they really accept god as just an idea they would have to critically examine what kind of idea it is. You make assumptions about the content or parameters of this concept “God” which are not applicable to everyone who uses the term, and in fact are probably not applicable to many who use it _and_ would be at all comfortable with the idea that God is an abstraction. In other words, you’re projecting “Sky God / Santa Claus” notions onto it where they don’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/74 "2009-02-10T19:09:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Things like honesty and thrift and virtue aren’t real, but are good to believe in. What use is God? The idea gives people moral (or immoral) values to live by without having to think about. It makes them feel the creator of the universe is on their side, either against another country or another football team. It gives them license to do all sorts of stuff, some good and some bad, without worrying if they are the right things to do. Maybe people can get behind the real ideas, and forget the god one, because if they really accept god as just an idea they would have to critically examine what kind of idea it is. Conversely, the idea of God might make someone feel more connected with others, through God. It might inspire them to help their fellow humans, as it has done for thousands of people. It might bring them great comfort in times of sorrow. Not every God is the one the bigots use. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/75 "2009-02-10T19:11:29Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > You make assumptions about the content or parameters of this concept “God” which are not applicable to everyone who uses the term, and in fact are probably not applicable to many who use it _and_ would be at all comfortable with the idea that God is an abstraction. > > In other words, you’re projecting “Sky God / Santa Claus” notions onto it where they don’t apply. Oh! Well put, better than I did. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/76 "2009-02-10T19:19:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Ok I can play that too, here are the instructions: Seriously, I’m not playing anything - I just think it’s good debating manners not to boldly assert something, then boldly run away. > [@](#): > > Now that is the Word and Wisdom of God How can it be verified that it really _is_ the word and wisdom of God? If it can only be verified by doing it, what do you say to people who did it, and found it not to work? (I’m pretty sure sure there will be some such people). > [@](#): > > please don’t counter with wisdom of man, it just can’t stand. If you don’t want a discussion, a sandwich board might suit you better than a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/77 "2009-02-10T19:23:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I am not the only one who has stated that God exists. Proof is not my job, but God’s, I suggest you ask Him. The instructions on how to find Him are printed in the Bible, if you don’t follow the instructions that God provides how can you expect to find Him? Really? God provided instructions? Sorry, all the annotated maps must have been removed from the various bibles that I have read. Falling back on the bible is a cop-out. The bible is nothing but product, packaged and sold by religion to the gullible. That argument would be similar to claiming that Peter Pan actually exists because someone wrote a book about him. And proof is your job. If you are going to make a definitive statement that a god exists, you need to be prepared to show proof of that statement. If you want to say that you believe that a god exists, that’s a different issue altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/78 "2009-02-10T19:29:28Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > You make assumptions about the content or parameters of this concept “God” which are not applicable to everyone who uses the term, and in fact are probably not applicable to many who use it _and_ would be at all comfortable with the idea that God is an abstraction. > > In other words, you’re projecting “Sky God / Santa Claus” notions onto it where they don’t apply. Maybe the God is on our side bit, but not the other parts. If god does not supply moral values, then why bother? If god does not supply purpose, then why bother? You might as well be worshiping a wad of chewing gum. God gives answers - if not written in holy fire, than by the very fact of his existence. How would an idea give those answers? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/79 "2009-02-10T19:35:53Z")
> [@MichaelJohnBertrand](#): > > Conversely, the idea of God might make someone feel more connected with others, through God. It might inspire them to help their fellow humans, as it has done for thousands of people. It might bring them great comfort in times of sorrow. > > Not every God is the one the bigots use. Of course not, and I tried to acknowledge that the idea of god has led to good things as well as bad. But would the acceptance as god being an idea and not “real” lead to the good things you mention? How many people are driven to do good by other fictional characters, like Mary Poppins or Obi-wan? Deep down in the heart of anyone doing things inspired by god is the thought that he is real, even if only in the pantheistic sense. If you say that the idea of good has led to more good than evil, I’d say that is because people thought the idea was the reality - even though the many images of god contradict each other. You’d then have a moral imperative to convince people that god is real (some god, not the hairy thunderer) even if you are sure he isn’t. Is that what you want to do? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053/80 "2009-02-10T21:18:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe the God is on our side bit, but not the other parts. If god does not supply moral values, then why bother? If god does not supply purpose, then why bother? You might as well be worshiping a wad of chewing gum. God gives answers - if not written in holy fire, than by the very fact of his existence. How would an idea give those answers? Well, unfortunately, we get into the sticky issue of the God/Jesus line here. I’ll try to dance around it. Why bother? Well, you assume that supplying purpose and moral values is the only thing a God can do. What about inspiring people? What about providing comfort and solace when we feel downtrodden? This role is often, but not always, assigned to Jesus in mainstream Western Christianity. hence the business about “finding Jesus in your heart”. This is a very personal God, a God who is a constant, loyal friend who loves you without conditions, forever, always. Seems fairly useful, a God like that. Or Jesus. Think of the story of the Gospels. You don’t have to believe it all literally happened in order to draw wisdom from the story of the life of Jesus, and especially from his words. Don’t underestimate the power of fictional characters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-god-enough/485053.md?page=5)