# Is the idea of overnight growth spurts still accepted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561 "2013-07-15T14:21:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Iggins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Iggins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggins)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/21 "2013-07-16T23:11:37Z")
Overnight growth? No, but I grew ~5 inches in one ~3 month period (over a summer). I didn’t have any memorable “growing pains”, either. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/22 "2013-07-16T23:37:12Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I’ll agree that it sure _seems_ impossible. > > But [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo#Ecology) reports that bamboo has been known to grow an entire meter in 24 hours. That’s an _average_ of 2/3 of a millimeter per MINUTE! You can almost watch it grow with your eyes! Granted that that’s an exceptional rate, but even under normal conditions it can grow 10 cm in a day. That’s still 4 mm in an hour. Damn fast for growth of a living organism, in my opinion. I have a potted asparagus fern that, when I bought it, had several stalks that were each about 8 to 10 inches long. I came downstairs one morning, and one of those stalks (or perhaps a new stalk, I’m not sure) was suddenly about 18 inches long. A few weeks later, a second long stalk appeared. I was astonished! It genuinely appears to have happened overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/23 "2013-07-16T23:39:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Trying to measure height or length is a silly way to decide if someone has grown over a short period of time. On the contrary, it’s the only meaningful way to do it. If I’m wondering whether someone’s grown, I’m wondering if they’ve gotten taller. I don’t care if the change in height is due to ligaments, cartilage, or bone: I just want the bottom line. Is he taller, or not? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/24 "2013-07-17T01:00:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the contrary, it’s the only meaningful way to do it. If I’m wondering whether someone’s grown, I’m wondering if they’ve gotten taller. I don’t care if the change in height is due to ligaments, cartilage, or bone: I just want the bottom line. Is he taller, or not? Interesting. Apparently I grow 1/2" or more every night. How come I’m not a lot taller? I should be over 600 feet tall now, there must be something wrong with your logic. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/25 "2013-07-17T01:39:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Interesting. Apparently I grow 1/2" or more every night. How come I’m not a lot taller? I should be over 600 feet tall now, there must be something wrong with your logic. No… because if we measure you at the same time each day, we’ll record the same height. If we measure at random times during the day, we’ll see lots of “noise” that still centers around the same height +/- 1/2". If we do multiple measurements per day, we’ll see the highest numbers in the morning and lower numbers later in the day. Your point boils down to “there’s lots of daily variation other than growth” and that’s not a critique of the concept of measuring height, just a commentary on how important our measurement protocols are. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/26 "2013-07-17T01:50:56Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > No… because if we measure you at the same time each day, we’ll record the same height. If we measure at random times during the day, we’ll see lots of “noise” that still centers around the same height +/- 1/2". If we do multiple measurements per day, we’ll see the highest numbers in the morning and lower numbers later in the day. > > Your point boils down to “there’s lots of daily variation other than growth” and that’s not a critique of the concept of measuring height, just a commentary on how important our measurement protocols are. I understand that. The methodology described above for measuring growth has lots of room for error. Height is based on the length of bones, plus the gap between bones because of the softer tissue there. And those gaps can vary greatly in a variety of ways that could appear to be sudden and consistent growth in a 24 hour period, but is actually the result of cumulative growth in the bones over a longer period of time, and is only revealed due to a change in posture such as straightening of the spine. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/27 "2013-07-17T02:31:33Z")
If it’s just from posture, then you’d expect that those sudden growths would be accompanied by nearly the same number of sudden shrinkages, that would cancel out the growths. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/28 "2013-07-17T03:04:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If it’s just from posture, then you’d expect that those sudden growths would be accompanied by nearly the same number of sudden shrinkages, that would cancel out the growths. No. The child is growing, just not overnight. The growth will exhibit in the posture change, and won’t revert because the child is going to continue growing. There is no doubt that children grow over time. What is at question is whether they can grow 1/2 inch taller overnight, and the methodology above isn’t going to accurately measure that. It wouldn’t surprise me to see children at certain ages grow 1/2 inch taller in a week, maybe even less than a week, but 1/2 inch in a 24 hour period is going to require accurate measuring to prove. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/29 "2013-07-17T03:13:09Z")
Well there is [this](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9667361) which claims to document that growth is indeed very chaotic on short time scales and in ranges that exceed measurement error noise. > [@](#): > > When body stature is measured at monthly intervals, an irregular incremental pattern becomes obvious, with a number of large scale components such as series of prepubertal and pubertal growth spurts, seasonal influences on height gain, and influences of the psychosocial and economic background. When measurement intervals decrease, the patterns of stature increment appear even more irregular, and a number of short scale components become apparent, that are distinct from measurement error. Observations are presented that suggest growth being a pulsatile, a periodic, a saltatory, respectively a chaotic event as suggested by some recent studies in animals and in human newborns. Accurate measurements of the lower leg at intervals of 24 hours support the idea of short term growth being characterized by chaotic series of ‘mini growth spurts’ that occur at intervals of approximately 4-9 days. The amplitude of mini growth spurts ranges between 2 and some 10 mm, and also growth velocity of each spurt varies considerably so that one spurt needs between less than one and up to several days for completion [This 2010 article](http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/317440) seems to be the most up to date review: > [@](#): > > The characteristic pattern of chaotic series of rapid shortterm growth changes, called mini-growth spurts, with average peak height velocity of 85 µm/h at intervals of 2–10 > days, followed by periods of growth arrest or diminished > growth velocity has extensively been studied in the lower > leg (knemometry) of rodents [11] and in newborn and premature infants [12] . As this pattern consists of jumps followed by stagnation, some authors refer to it as saltation > and stasis [13] … > > … . Accurate lower leg length measurements using > knemometry is elaborate. Increasing measurement frequency using conventional body height measurements > including an appropriate statistical treatment is simple. > High-frequency measurements, though to date almost exclusively being used for scientific purposes [17] , have been > found practicable So yes growth does occur in chaotic mini-spurts. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/30 "2013-07-17T03:19:39Z")
That sounds like a better way to measure growth. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/31 "2013-07-17T03:30:50Z")
Anecdotal: When I was a kid, I had what I was told were growing pains, and I remember a few times that first thing in the morning and lasting through the school day I felt taller. No one measured my height, damn it. But I also remember once in a while waking up in the morning and not opening my eyes because as soon as I’d do so I’d lose the impression/hallucination that I was as big as the universe or very, very small (which I could control but knew at the time wasn’t real). I was eight to 10 years old. _Magic words of poof poof piffles Make me just as small as Sniffles._ That worked, but only in comic books. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/32 "2013-07-17T13:28:21Z")
> [@Iggins](#): > > Overnight growth? No, but I grew ~5 inches in one ~3 month period (over a summer). I didn’t have any memorable “growing pains”, either. That works out to roughly a little less than a millimeter and a half per day, assuming you grew at a steady rate. If you didn’t, then it’s likely that you grew a measurable amount over some night-time period. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/33 "2013-07-18T04:32:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the contrary, it’s the only meaningful way to do it. If I’m wondering whether someone’s grown, I’m wondering if they’ve gotten taller. I don’t care if the change in height is due to ligaments, cartilage, or bone: I just want the bottom line. Is he taller, or not? On the contrary, measuring length changes overnight to check for “growth” is a stupid way to try and measure growth overnight. Cell division at the epiphyseal plate does not take place rapidly enough to create a bone length difference in 8-12 hours that is measurable by attempts to measure total length of a human being. Postural changes, changes in turgor of intravertebral discs, and the mechanics of measuring length itself all create a background noise against which the actual bone length difference would be lost. The time of day of measurement would make a difference as well. It’s true that if you are wondering if someone has grown, you are wondering if they got taller. But you are mixing up that concept with the concept that if someone has gotten taller, they must have “grown.” And the second concept is not correct. We get taller (longer) during brief intervals such as overnight but the amount we get longer is not a reflection of the amount we have grown. In fact, the amount of length change unrelated to “growth” is so large compared with the amount of length change related to growth that any conclusion of growth overnight based on length measurement is completely invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/34 "2013-07-18T05:14:23Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Reminds me of [one of the funniest things ever said in a thread I started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2729232&postcount=8). Eleven years. Good times here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/35 "2013-07-18T21:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Postural changes, changes in turgor of intravertebral discs, and the mechanics of measuring length itself all create a background noise against which the actual bone length difference would be lost. > > The time of day of measurement would make a difference as well. The time of day of measurement wouldn’t make a difference, because you’d be controlling for that. It’s really easy to do so: Compare each measurement only to other measurements made at the same time of day. As for the rest of the noise sources, you control them away as much as you can, and just average large numbers of data points to take care of the rest. Just like you’d do in any other science. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/36 "2013-07-18T21:44:48Z")
If posture is the only complaint, you could also come up with a measurement system that is independent of posture. For example, the length of certain bones in the legs would give you some useful data about growth that would not vary as much as total body height. You could even conceive of a measurement system that used X-rays, ultrasound, whatever, to measure all the internal bones and gaps between bones. (PS: I’m not sure I buy into large growth spurts overnight, just so I’m clear on that. I just don’t think that measuring growth on a daily scale is an insurmountable obstacle if you set up the right procedures, use a large enough sample set and are willing to crunch through the statistics.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/37 "2013-07-18T21:55:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The time of day of measurement wouldn’t make a difference, because you’d be controlling for that. It’s really easy to do so: Compare each measurement only to other measurements made at the same time of day. As for the rest of the noise sources, you control them away as much as you can, and just average large numbers of data points to take care of the rest. Just like you’d do in any other science. You have a foam rubber tube. It’s between 2 and 4 feet long, irregular but maybe averaging 8-10 inches in diameter, and it stretches. Inside are a bunch of wooden blocks connected end to end with some stretchy and compressible pieces of foam rubber. A few blocks are as much as six inches long, most are less than inch long. The connecting pieces of foam are all less than an inch long. There’s one big block at one end. The tube is shaken around and tossed on the floor. How long is the tube? Every day the tube and it’s contents grow a little, imperceptible amounts except for random days where the growth is measurable, but the cumulative growth of all the blocks and all the foam is never more than 1/2 inch. How do you tell from the varying length of the tube how long it is on any one day, or if the cumulative growth reaches 1/2 inch in any one day? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/38 "2013-07-19T02:52:58Z")
The “high frequency growth measurements” [reference](http://informahealthcare.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460500525369) from the article already cited: > [@](#): > > There is agreement amongst most investigators now on the fact that growth, when measured over short periods, is an irregular and non-linear process. … Standing height or supine length were measured five times a week during 128 days, with Harpenden instruments and standardized techniques. A jump-preserving smoothing technique, based on the technical error of measurement (TEM) with a hard rejection criterion was used to analyse our data. TEM varied between 0.08 and 0.20 cm. … Three types of events were found: (1) stasis (changes in smoothed values indistinguishable from zero over 7 or more consecutive days), (2) steep changes (any daily increment greater than 0.3 cm over 1 day), and (3) continuous growth (small, and continued increments over time). The three types were present in all infants, adolescents and schoolchildren The [figure](http://informahealthcare.com/action/showPopup?citid=citart1&id=F0005b&doi=10.1080/03014460500525369) showing sample growth curves show what these micro spurts look like: periods of no growth sometimes as long as 28 days long interspersed with priods of gradual growth and periods of steep growth over a few days. Total growth measurement daily is possible to perform accurately, has been done, and documents growth often in excess of 0.3 cm in 24 hour periods and more than 1 cm in a 2 to 3 days. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/39 "2013-07-19T03:01:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Total growth measurement daily is possible to perform accurately, has been done, and documents growth often in excess of 0.3 cm in 24 hour periods and more than 1 cm in a 2 to 3 days. So then, less than 1/2 inch in a 24 hour period. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561/40 "2013-07-19T04:38:04Z")
Yes, in that study at least. It must be noted that [Lampl’s study](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/258/5083/801) (full article behind wall), was restricted to infants. It found up to 2.5 cm in 3 day periods and up to 1.65 cm (0.64 inch) in 24 hour periods: > [@](#): > > Semiweekly assessments showed saltatory length > increments of 0.5 to 2.5 cm punctuating 3- > to 60-day intervals of no growth. Daily > measurements documented length incre- > ments from 0.5 to 1.65 cm (23 of 28 > ranging from 0.8 to 1.65 cm in .24 hours) > separated by 2 to 28 days of stasis (Fig. 1). > The daily data suggest that many of the > weekly and semiweekly increments may > have occurred during individual 24-hour > (or shorter) intervals. The amplitude of > these saltations is 2.5 to 10 times greater > than errors of measurement. … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-idea-of-overnight-growth-spurts-still-accepted/663561.md?page=3)