# Is the Immaculate Conception of Mary or Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548 "2009-10-29T02:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/41 "2009-10-29T16:19:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope, exactly correct. But isn’t it generally agreed that Jesus had siblings? I’m not looking for argument but the siblings thing has always confused me; I don’t remember ever hearing it discussed, much less explained. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/42 "2009-10-29T16:34:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope, exactly correct. The Catholics think that Mary was taken bodily to heaven? Like, before she died? And how do Catholics reconcile when Paul talks about meeting Jesus’s brother? As someone who was raised Protestant (Baptist), this Catholic obsession with Mary seems strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/43 "2009-10-29T16:46:06Z")
Catholic doctrine is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary – she remained a virgin her whole life until being bodily assumed into heaven (the Assumption of Mary). References to Jesus’ siblings, in this view, actually refer to his cousins, half-siblings (through Joseph), or followers. Most non-Catholic Christians do not believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity, nor her bodily assumption. Neither is documented in the Gospels or other scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/44 "2009-10-29T16:57:51Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > But isn’t it generally agreed that Jesus had siblings? I’m not looking for argument but the siblings thing has always confused me; I don’t remember ever hearing it discussed, much less explained. The Protestant churches, which do not accept the doctrine of Aeiparthenos (“Mary, ever virgin…”) certainly point to Scripture like Mark 3:31-32: > [@](#): > > Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. > > A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You. Of course, this wasn’t written in English. The English was translated from the original Greek, and the word was _adelphos_, which means brother. But it also means kinsman of a more distant sort. In Genesis, Jacob is called the “brother” of his Uncle Laban, and there are many more Old Testament examples of the same thing – kinsmen being called ‘brother.’ Of course, the Old Testament was in Hebrew, translated to the Greek, and the Greek translation used _adelphos_. There was no contemporary separate Hebrew word for “cousin.” As one commentator writes: > [@](#): > > By comparing Matthew 27:56, Mark 15:40, and John 19:25, we find that James and Joseph – mentioned in Matthew 13:55 with Simon and Jude as Jesus’ “brothers” – are also called sons of Mary, wife of Clopas. This other Mary (Matthew 27:61, 28:1) is called Our Lady’s adelphe in John 19:25 (it isn’t likely that there were two women named “Mary” in one family – thus even this usage apparently means “cousin” or more distant relative). Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3 mention Simon, Jude and “sisters” along with James and Joseph, calling all adelphoi. Since we know for sure at least James and Joseph are not Jesus’ blood brothers, the most likely interpretation of Matthew 13:55 is that all these “brothers” are cousins, according to the linguistic conventions discussed above. At the very least, the term “brother” is not determinative in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/45 "2009-10-29T17:09:32Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The Catholics think that Mary was taken bodily to heaven? Like, before she died? Correct. While there is no explicit statement in Scripture that says Mary was taken bodily into Heaven, the idea isn’t unprecedented. Enoch and Elijah were Old Testament prophets who were taken bodily away by God. Further, Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin, which meant that her body would have been free from the penalty described to Adam in Gen 3:19 – > [@](#): > > By the sweat of your face > You will eat bread, > Till you (U)return to the ground, > Because (V)from it you were taken; > For you are dust, > And to dust you shall return. > [@](#): > > And how do Catholics reconcile when Paul talks about meeting Jesus’s brother? As someone who was raised Protestant (Baptist), this Catholic obsession with Mary seems strange to me. See the cousins language commentary above. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/46 "2009-10-29T17:38:07Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > But isn’t it generally agreed that Jesus had siblings? I’m not looking for argument but the siblings thing has always confused me; I don’t remember ever hearing it discussed, much less explained. Here’s the Straight Dope: [Did Jesus have siblings?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1338/did-jesus-have-siblings) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/47 "2009-10-29T17:48:39Z")
When Mary being Jesus mother comes up, I picture “Rosemary’s Baby”. A sex act with god ,the Father. It just seems wrong. ---
**Author:** ![boozilu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@boozilu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boozilu)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/48 "2009-10-29T18:16:35Z")
Back to the OP, an easy way to remember that Immaculate Conception doesn’t refer to Jesus is the fact that the IC is celebrated in early December and Christmas in late December. At least, if one is a church-going Catholic . . . ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/49 "2009-10-29T18:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The Catholics think that Mary was taken bodily to heaven? Like, before she died? I was taught the Assumption of Mary as a kid, and we even had a stained glass window depicting it in our Church. That’s why I was very surprised when I came across an engraving by Brueghel showing _The Death of the Virgin_ – it shows Mary dying in bed, surrounded by Apostles. Moreover, it was only one of a number of variations of that theme. I was surprised to find that the Assumption was not a universal belief. In fact, some of these works were by Catholics: > **[Death of the Virgin (Caravaggio)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Virgin_(Caravaggio))** > > Death of the Virgin is an oil on canvas painting by the Italian Baroque master Caravaggio, from c. 1604-1606. It is a depiction of the death of the Virgin Mary. It is part of the collection of the Musée du Louvre, in Paris. > When he painted The Death of the Virgin (c. 1601–06), Caravaggio had been working in Rome for fifteen years. The painting was commissioned by Laerzio Cherubini, a papal lawyer, for his chapel in the Carmelite church of Santa Maria della Scala in Trastevere, Rome; the painting... > **[Search results for: 'Spanish Unknown Masters The Death Of The Virgin 1490s'](https://www.1st-art-gallery.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Spanish+Unknown+Masters+The+Death+Of+The+Virgin+1490s&amnoroute)** > > Buy Museum-quality Oil Painting Reproductions of Famous Artists & one-of-a-kind custom paintings from photos. Get your Hand-painted Fine Art with Free Shipping! ---
**Author:** ![Nom\_de\_Plume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85f322/32.png) [@Nom\_de\_Plume](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nom_de_Plume)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/50 "2009-10-29T18:24:12Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Kind of like sterilizing the container you are going to make beer in. Wouldn’t '..to make _wine_ in" be more appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/51 "2009-10-29T18:52:57Z")
Beer is a better analogy if you’re making a comparison to godliness. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/52 "2009-10-29T20:33:23Z")
\ Quoth **The Second Stone** : > [@](#): > > Say, I see you are from Bozeman. Does that stunning redhead who became unfortunately famous still live there? I’ve seen a few stunning redheads around here, and I know of a few Bozemanites who became famous, but I’m not aware of an intersection between the two sets. But I’m always willing to broaden my horizons: What was her name? \ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/53 "2009-10-29T23:30:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The term has an objective meaning, just like the term “unicorn” has an objective meaning. That’s true whether the thing that the term represents is correct or not. > > Now, language can change over time, and it’s possible that the meaning of the term “Immaculate Conception” could change, but it hasn’t yet. Just because some people use the term mistakenly doesn’t mean the term doesn’t have a meaning. Imagine that people started using “unicorn” to mean a mythical stalk of corn with a single ear. And then in 50 years more people understood and used it to mean the corn definition. Or only that millions understood and used it that way. Why would that not be valid definition of “unicorn”? That is the situation we are in now with “Immaculate Conception.” I do not have proof, but I bet a poll would show more people think it refers to Jesus’ conception. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/54 "2009-10-29T23:39:45Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Imagine that people started using “unicorn” to mean a mythical stalk of corn with a single ear. And then in 50 years more people understood and used it to mean the corn definition. Or only that millions understood and used it that way. Why would that not be valid definition of “unicorn”? > > That is the situation we are in now with “Immaculate Conception.” I do not have proof, but I bet a poll would show more people think it refers to Jesus’ conception. The analogy is flawed, because the definition of Immaculate Conception has not undergone such a radical transformation. The definition in reference to Jesus’ conception is just a product of ignorance of Christian doctrine. Doctrine outweighs the misapprehension of a bunch of wankers, no? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/55 "2009-10-29T23:55:26Z")
> [@Chakra Nadmara](#): > > The analogy is flawed, because the definition of Immaculate Conception has not undergone such a radical transformation. The definition in reference to Jesus’ conception is just a product of ignorance of Christian doctrine. Doctrine outweighs the misapprehension of a bunch of wankers, no? Why? Do the learned own the language? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/56 "2009-10-30T00:02:13Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Doesn’t that just beg the question? The issue is does it have an objective meaning or two objective meanings. I wager that plenty of people who do not understand the difference between _atom_ and _molecule_, or _chemical element_ and _chemical compound_. That does not mean that CO2 is the description of an atom, or that that water is a chemical element. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/57 "2009-10-30T00:40:58Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Why? Do the learned own the language? The fact that some people believe the word [_niggardly_](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm) is a racial slur does not make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/58 "2009-10-30T00:47:13Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Doesn’t that just beg the question? Speaking of things that a lot of people get wrong… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/59 "2009-10-30T01:36:57Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The fact that some people believe the word [_niggardly_](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm) is a racial slur does not make it so. Maybe there are not enough people who believe “niggardly” is a racial to make it one. But the only thing that makes “nigger” a racial slur is people believing it is a racial slur. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/60 "2009-10-30T01:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Imagine that people started using “unicorn” to mean a mythical stalk of corn with a single ear. And then in 50 years more people understood and used it to mean the corn definition. Or only that millions understood and used it that way. Why would that not be valid definition of “unicorn”? If that’s what a “unicorn” is, then what’s the word for the beast that looks like a cross between a horse and a narwhal? Likewise, Catholicism does have a doctrine that Mary was conceived without original sin, and there’s a term for that doctrine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548.md?page=4)