# Is the Immaculate Conception of Mary or Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548 "2009-10-29T02:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/61 "2009-10-30T01:47:31Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That’s why I was very surprised when I came across an engraving by Brueghel showing _The Death of the Virgin_ – it shows Mary dying in bed, surrounded by Apostles. Moreover, it was only one of a number of variations of that theme. I was surprised to find that the Assumption was not a universal belief. In fact, some of these works were by Catholics: The doctrine of the Assumption didn’t become a required belief for Catholics until 1950, when Pope Pius XII declared it to be infallibly true. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/62 "2009-10-30T02:46:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The doctrine of the Assumption didn’t become a required belief for Catholics until 1950, when Pope Pius XII declared it to be infallibly true. It wasn’t “required” in the sense of being dogmatically defined until 1950. But it was generally taught, and generally believed, before that. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/63 "2009-10-30T04:34:20Z")
And the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception didn’t become a required belief (dogma) until 1854. ---
**Author:** ![JWT\_Kottekoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@JWT\_Kottekoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JWT_Kottekoe)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/64 "2009-10-30T05:00:08Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Speaking of things that a lot of people get wrong… Most people have no clue about the original meaning of “to beg the question”. This used to irritate me but I have come to accept the fact that English is a dynamic language. The strict grammarians have lost that battle, along with insisting that “their” is not a singular pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/65 "2009-10-30T05:04:33Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It wasn’t “required” in the sense of being dogmatically defined until 1950. But it was generally taught, and generally believed, before that. Right, but Catholics didn’t have to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/66 "2009-10-30T05:22:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The doctrine of the Assumption didn’t become a required belief for Catholics until 1950, when Pope Pius XII declared it to be infallibly true. But artistic representations of the Assumption appear much earlier than that. [Titian’s famous Assumption](http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/tours/venetian/1assunt1.html), for instance, dates to 1516-18. The problem is that Renaissance and Baroque artists often incorporated themes derived from apocryphal texts in addition to canonical sources. According the [_Golden Legend_](http://www.aug.edu/augusta/iconography/goldenLegend/assumption.htm) (a famous and influential compilation of apocryphal stories about Christ and the saints), Mary undergoes a real, physical death and is buried, but on the third day, she is resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven. So those Catholic artists that **CalMeacham** mentions would (most likely) have believed in both the Virgin’s death AND her Assumption. ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/67 "2009-10-30T06:45:08Z")
I’d just like to add that the wiki page for St. Anne is very informative on this subject. St. Anne was Mary’s mother, if you didn’t know. > **[Saint Anne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Anne)** > > According to Christian apocryphal and Islamic tradition, Saint Anne was the mother of Mary, the wife of Joachim and the maternal grandmother of Jesus. Mary's mother is not named in the canonical gospels. In writing, Anne's name and that of her husband Joachim come only from New Testament apocrypha, of which the Gospel of James (written perhaps around 150 AD) seems to be the earliest that mentions them. > The mother of Mary is mentioned but not named in the Quran. > The story is similar to that of ... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/68 "2009-10-30T12:23:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Mary undergoes a real, physical death and is buried, but on the third day, she is resurrected and assumed bodily into heaven. _Definitely_ not the way I learned it in Catholic School. We were just taught about the Assumption. That’s why finding depictions of Mary on her deathbed were such a surprise to me. We’d never been taught about Mary dying. It was implied that she was assumed into Heaven while still alive. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/69 "2009-10-30T13:16:49Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > _Definitely_ not the way I learned it in Catholic School. OTOH in the Eastern Churches (Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic), that which was described by **Götterfunken** is **the tradition of the _Dormition_ of Mary** , which is pretty much as described, in which Mary undergoes a brief temporary death a-la-JC only without the whole descent-into-Sheol schtick (sinless, remember) and THEN is granted the Resurrection and Assumed to rejoin the family. The Western Church, though, **apparently officially says Mary was Assumed “at the end of her earthly life” without going into detail as to exactly what happened.** The sequential mechanics of the event are apparently not part of the dogma? Any help, **Bricker, tomndebb**? So that aspect, whether the Assumption means she was “raptured” a-la-Elijah or preemptively Resurrected and Assumed, is apparently a matter of debate and disagreement all the way to modern theological times. (The Golden Legend is where you find things like the Grail and the whole gang taking summer trips to Cornwall 😉 , it’s fun but nondoctrinal) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/70 "2009-10-30T15:21:08Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/71 "2009-10-30T19:47:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > _Definitely_ not the way I learned it in Catholic School. We were just taught about the Assumption. That’s why finding depictions of Mary on her deathbed were such a surprise to me. We’d never been taught about Mary dying. It was implied that she was assumed into Heaven while still alive. Me either–like you, I only learned about the Death of the Virgin imagery from art history (and I have to say it came as a surprise to me, too, the first time I saw it). It was apparently a very common theme up through the Baroque era, but afterwards it seems to have died off (heh) in popularity–at least in the Western Church. After the Counter-Reformation, the Catholic Church began insisting that artists adhere more strictly to scriptural sources, and discouraged them from relying on apocryphal texts like the Golden Legend (which had provided so much of the imagery for medieval and Renaissance art). As a result, several popular but not officially-sanctioned beliefs gradually disappeared. At the same time, other popular traditions remained so strong that they eventually became accepted by the Church as legitimate. The doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Virgin are examples of the latter–long the object of popular devotion, and without scriptural basis, but today recognized as dogma by the Church. It’s interesting what **JRDelirious** says about the Dormition of the Virgin and the Eastern Churches. A lot of Mary’s iconography (and the apocryphal legends about her childhood, etc.) had become common in Byzantine art long before they’d become common in Western art. I suspect that the Death of the Virgin imagery was originally based on Byzantine prototypes. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/72 "2009-10-30T22:32:55Z")
orthodox type here. most ikons will show the death of the theotokos thusly: a central “laying out” of the theotokos with the apostles and morners around her. behind here will be her son bearing a small doll like looking theotokos which represents her soul. she was buried in a traditional manor ( with an interesting bit of someone’s hands falling off and being put back on) when her grave was visited (thomas again) her body was gone. [http://orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition](http://orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/73 "2009-10-31T02:11:07Z")
> [@](#): > > she was buried in a traditional _ **manor** _ ( with an interesting bit of someone’s hands falling off and being put back on) when her grave was visited (thomas again) her body was gone. Was it Stately and Wayne? Forgive me. I couldn’t help myself. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/74 "2009-11-02T02:40:53Z")
Broadly, the Eastern tradition - shared by the Orthodox and by Eastern Catholics - is that the Virgin died and was then assumed into heaven. The Western tradition, common among Latin Catholics, was that she was assumed instead of dying. The dogmatic formulation of the doctrine is compatible with both traditions - presumably intentionally so. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/75 "2009-11-02T04:31:20Z")
I believe catholics believe Mary never sinned ever. I was brought up catholic but left that church and became a christian. We believe Jesus had no sin, but Mary conceived without having had sex first, though she later had relations. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/76 "2009-11-02T05:05:30Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I was brought up catholic but left that church and became a christian. Catholics are Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/77 "2009-11-03T00:07:42Z")
> [@](#): > > most ikons will show the death of the theotokos thusly: To be clear, “theotokos” means something like “Mother of God”? I haven’t encountered the term before. > [@](#): > > We believe Jesus had no sin, but Mary conceived without having had sex first, though she later had relations. Catholics believe that Mary never in her life had sex, and also believe that she never in her life sinned, but the two beliefs are completely unrelated. The Catholic church does not teach, and never has taught, that sex within marriage is sinful. Mary could have had sex with Joseph, her husband, and still have been without sin. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/78 "2009-11-03T23:20:49Z")
theotokos is greek for god bearer. most orthodox types will refer to her using the greek title. the more common terms of “bvm” or “our lady” are frowned as they don’t give her her full due. > **[Theotokos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos)** > > Autocephaly recognized by some autocephalous Churches de jure: > Autocephaly and canonicity recognized by Constantinople and 3 other autocephalous Churches: > Autocephaly and canonicity recognized by Georgian Orthodox Church: calmeacham, i sure the “manor” was a hole-in-the-wall orig. but has become quite the stately building now! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/79 "2009-11-06T23:23:54Z")
It’s of Mary, technically. This is one of those terms, like “Frankenstein,” “begging the question,” or “fascist,” 😉 that is misused more than it’s used correctly–much to the chagrin of those of us who value precise & meaningful intercourse. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548/80 "2009-11-07T00:00:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s of Mary, technically. This is one of those terms, like “Frankenstein,” “begging the question,” or “fascist,” 😉 that is misused more than it’s used correctly–much to the chagrin of those of us who value precise & meaningful intercourse. I wouldn’t put _begging the question_ on that list. Persons who use it to mean “Phenomenon X makes one wonder about Possibility Y” are using _begging the question_ in a literal rather than metaphorical sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-immaculate-conception-of-mary-or-jesus/515548.md?page=5)