# Is the individual mandate to purchase health insurance constitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349 "2010-03-22T16:14:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/121 "2010-03-22T20:36:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where have you been for the last 80 years or so? The notion of a limited federal government hasn’t been anywhere close to reality since WWII. By ‘constitutionally speaking’, what I meant was, if we actually paid attention to what the constitution says. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/122 "2010-03-22T20:37:08Z")
I wonder how many people actually realize how much this will cost them? Using the tool you just linked to, if you’re in a typical family of three with a household income of $40,000, the government will only give you a subsidy for your mandated health insurance if it exceeds $3220 per year. A family of three earning $40,000 is going to have a hell of a time coming up with $3200. And insurance for a young family of three with a small child is probably worth about that much money. Furthermore, if you’re in a two-income family that’s only earning $40,000, you’re most likely not getting health insurance through your employer. This is the very model of the currently uninsured - the ‘working poor’ who make below the national average family income and who can’t afford health care, but who make too much to get Medicaid. They’re being ‘covered’ now, but only by being told they have to pay. Unless they’re living in poverty, they’re not getting much help to make it affordable. I wonder if the idea all along was to put out a plan that would hurt people so much that it would result in a clamor for a full single-payer government plan… ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/123 "2010-03-22T20:39:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, until recently, the tort system was pretty much left to the states. As well as the issuance of marriage licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/124 "2010-03-22T20:51:26Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > If it were by chance struck down (unlikely), that just strikes down that section of the bill and not the bill in its entirety, correct? > > In which case, I wish the legal radicals all the luck in the world. If you get rid of that provision, the private insurance market is dead by the end of the decade. Try the end of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/125 "2010-03-22T21:03:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I wonder how many people actually realize how much this will cost them? > > Using the tool you just linked to, if you’re in a typical family of three with a household income of $40,000, the government will only give you a subsidy for your mandated health insurance if it exceeds $3220 per year. > > A family of three earning $40,000 is going to have a hell of a time coming up with $3200. And insurance for a young family of three with a small child is probably worth about that much money. Furthermore, if you’re in a two-income family that’s only earning $40,000, you’re most likely not getting health insurance through your employer. > > This is the very model of the currently uninsured - the ‘working poor’ who make below the national average family income and who can’t afford health care, but who make too much to get Medicaid. They’re being ‘covered’ now, but only by being told they have to pay. Unless they’re living in poverty, they’re not getting much help to make it affordable. > > I wonder if the idea all along was to put out a plan that would hurt people so much that it would result in a clamor for a full single-payer government plan… I don’t know about that. $266 a month for two people and a child seems pretty reasonable to me. Especially with a child. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/126 "2010-03-22T21:19:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Thanks. > > So it’s nowhere near an individual or a family making 200K, and **Dio** ’s claim that almost nobody would qualify for the penalty seems a bit off. How do you figure? That cite is about subsidies, not about penalties. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/127 "2010-03-22T21:24:40Z")
Sounds to me that this isnt UHC, but just forcing people to buy shit they can’t afford, and its shit they WOULD have bought in the first place if they COULD afford it. Its like one step up from just outlawing poverty to solve the poverty problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/128 "2010-03-22T21:26:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How do you figure? That cite is about subsidies, not about penalties. Here’s the Q&A about penalties, again from MSNBC Q: I don’t have health insurance. Would I have to get it, and what happens if I don’t? A: Under the legislation, most Americans would have to have insurance by 2014 or pay a penalty. The penalty would start at $95, or up to 1 percent of income, whichever is greater, and rise to $695, or 2.5 percent of income, by 2016. This is an individual limit; families have a limit of $2,085. Some people would be exempted from the insurance requirement, called an individual mandate, because of financial hardship or religious beliefs or if they are American Indians, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/129 "2010-03-22T21:30:54Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Um… almost everything? Except what is listed in the enumerated powers. > > (Like force people to buy health insurance, for one…) The federal government is limited to the enumerated powers? ROFLMAO, riiiight, keep thinking that. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/130 "2010-03-22T21:35:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t know about that. $266 a month for two people and a child seems pretty reasonable to me. Especially with a child. It may be reasonable, but is it affordable? Can a family of three making $40K per year come up with that kind of money? It seems to me that one of the reasons there are so many uninsured right now is because they have decided they can’t afford it. It seems to me that there’s another perverse incentive here. Liberals complained about the current system in that it locked a person into a single employer for fear of losing their health coverage. This plan seems to make that worse, because if you lose your job you not only lose your health insurance, but you’re forced to either pay for it on your own or start paying penalties. You no longer have the option of going uninsured until you can find a new job with coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/131 "2010-03-22T21:35:39Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Actually, you don’t. You have to show what part of the constitution something is based on. Then, and only then, does it matter if it conflicts with a violation. Huh?!? I think you are interpreting constitutional law differently than every court since Marbury v. Madison. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/132 "2010-03-22T21:37:06Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Sounds to me that this isnt UHC, but just forcing people to buy shit they can’t afford, and its shit they WOULD have bought in the first place if they COULD afford it. > > Its like one step up from just outlawing poverty to solve the poverty problem. It takes steps to make sure that it is affordable. Also, someone who doesn’t have insurance is a burden on society, because if and when they fall sick they have to be treated at great additional cost to the taxpayer. Remember that for millions of Americans health insurance isn’t available at any cost, or the cost is literally beyond their capacity to pay. I knew a guy who had to quit his job because the cost to cover his daughter on his insurance was more than his paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/133 "2010-03-22T21:38:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t know about that. $266 a month for two people and a child seems pretty reasonable to me. Especially with a child. It’s very reasonable. It’s a hell of a lot less than what I pay now. Sam is also being deceptive in that he’s ignoring the employers’ share of the bills and pretending that these families would be paying the whole freight by themselves Yes, single payer would be better. OBVIOUSLY, it would be better. Everybody knows that, but this current plan is going to make paying for health care easier, not harder (especially small business, who will be eligible for generous subsidies) and removes the drain of the financially able, but free-loading uninsured from the backs of those who pay their bills. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/134 "2010-03-22T21:40:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It may be reasonable, but is it affordable? Can a family of three making $40K per year come up with that kind of money? Easily. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/135 "2010-03-22T21:41:56Z")
> [@NotreDame05](#): > > I appreciate the reply, however, your example is one of what towns do. However, just because towns do it does not mean the federal government may also do it consistent with the U.S. Constitution. Our constitution is a dual system of government, with the states and federal government co-existing simultaneously but not with the same powers. Hence, what the states and towns may do, consistent with the U.S. Constitution, does not mean the federal government can follow suit. I hear you but the answer is still “probably” The federal government taxes all sorts of things that impose social costs, everything from sin taxes to gas guzzler taxes. Like i said, the power to tax is pretty broad, in fact the power to do just about anything is pretty broad. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/136 "2010-03-22T21:42:45Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Here’s the Q&A about penalties, again from MSNBC > > Q: I don’t have health insurance. Would I have to get it, and what happens if I don’t? > > A: Under the legislation, most Americans would have to have insurance by 2014 or pay a penalty. The penalty would start at $95, or up to 1 percent of income, whichever is greater, and rise to $695, or 2.5 percent of income, by 2016. This is an individual limit; families have a limit of $2,085. Some people would be exempted from the insurance requirement, called an individual mandate, because of financial hardship or religious beliefs or if they are American Indians, for example. Yes, but those people would also be able to buy subsidized insurance, so they won’t be affected. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/137 "2010-03-22T21:43:20Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > By ‘constitutionally speaking’, what I meant was, if we actually paid attention to what the constitution says. You mean if we all interpreted the Constitution the way YOU interpret it. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court hasn’t agreed with you more than a handful of time in very extreme cases in almost a hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/138 "2010-03-22T21:49:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It takes steps to make sure that it is affordable. > > . It sounds like many other gubment programs. The people that cant afford anything are GIVEN yet another freebee. The rich people are given the shaft but they can afford it, so who cares. And then there is the big group in the middle getting the shaft yet again, the working middle/lower middle class that works hard for everything they have. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/139 "2010-03-22T21:54:22Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > It sounds like many other gubment programs. The people that cant afford anything are GIVEN yet another freebee. They already get health care as a freebee today. They just get it in a very inefficient and expensive way. Point being you are paying for them anyway, might as well make it cost as little as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349/140 "2010-03-22T22:01:14Z")
> [@NotreDame05](#): > > To an extent you are correct, and the “extent” is contingent upon the context of the discussion. The U.S. Constitution does contain some provisions where both Congress and the states are expressly prohibited from doing something. > > However, when the discussion moves to the realm of Congress having the authority to do something under Article I, Section 8, then the burden rests on the individual asserting there is a provision in the U.S. Constitution giving Congress the power to do whatever it is doing. In other words, the burden is not on the individual stating Congress lacks this under Article I, Section 8, but the individual/person/people stating Congress has the authority under Article I, Section 8. To be nitpicky again in the same thread (and only in reference to Constitutional law would I feel it appropriate to do so twice or more), your statement would need to add "or in the various other power grants scattered through the original text and amendments. For example, Article IV Section 1 gives Congress the power to establish a uniform rule by which the acts and judicial decisions of each state may be proven to the others. Amendments 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 24, and 26 each contain a grant of “power to enforce this article\* by appropriate legislation.” - FWIW, the technical term for a U.S. Constitutional amendment is the “Nth Article of Amendment”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-individual-mandate-to-purchase-health-insurance-constitutional/533349.md?page=8)