# Is the internet killing religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 29, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286 "2014-07-29T00:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrsTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@MrsTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsTime)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/61 "2014-07-30T16:27:41Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > No, religion is killing religion. ^^ that. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/62 "2014-07-30T19:25:07Z")
Are there less religious adherents nowadays compared to the past? Seems rather parochial to focus on the West, where religiosity has been falling since the Enlightenment. The West has low birth rates and is less religious but the rest of the world, especially developing countries, have high birth rates and are more religious. Maybe religion is stronger than ever. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/63 "2014-07-30T19:56:33Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Are there less religious adherents nowadays compared to the past? Seems rather parochial to focus on the West, where religiosity has been falling since the Enlightenment. The West has low birth rates and is less religious but the rest of the world, especially developing countries, have high birth rates and are more religious. Maybe religion is stronger than ever. There’s a lot of uncertainty around all of that. Lots of places around the world now have low fertility rates, the Far East in particular. In fact, there are only a few places that don’t have declining fertility rates, though the speed of such declines (and their current rates) vary considerably. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/64 "2014-07-30T20:59:31Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > One interesting counterpoint to the idea that the passage of time leads to less clothing is early 20th century movies with little girls who wore rather short dresses and flashed their underwear all over the place. Back then, nobody cared if you could see Shirley Temple’s bloomers - why would they? It was teens and grown women who had to be careful about modesty. Now, it’s the other way around. To hijack this, I can’t believe that a wee Shirley Temple was the star of a movie series called “Baby Burlesks”. I mentioned that to a friend & he replied “Please tell me that you’re making this up.” Nope! Meanwhile, I caused my whole breakroom at work to groan in mock horror when I mentioned how the 50 Shades movie could have opened up a massive controvery by casting, instead of Dakota Johnson… Dakota Fanning. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/65 "2014-07-31T14:56:15Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > It’s definitely chasing some religions that have traditionally depended on secrecy and misrepresentation of history, such as the Mormons, into a corner. Speaking as a former Mormon, I’m shocked at some of the things the LDS Church has come out and clarified/changed/admitted in the last few years, as the free exchange of information on the internet makes it impossible to keep whitewashing their history, and shines a light on some of their more outlandish historical and anthropological claims. The internet has caused what the leaders are calling a “great apostasy” and record numbers of people are leaving. There are also numerous forums for ex-Mormons so more as well as a number of groups of Mormons who are pushing for reforms. There has been a push to give the priesthood to women. Unlike most other Christian faiths all boys and men over the age 12 pretty much get the priesthood and no women can. One activist was recently excommunicated for her stance. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/66 "2014-07-31T15:37:16Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The internet has **caused** what the leaders are calling a “great apostasy” and record numbers of people are leaving. Cite? For the bolded part, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/67 "2014-07-31T15:43:50Z")
^^ I too, would appreciate any cite recommendations. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/68 "2014-07-31T16:35:25Z")
I’m going to say no. The internet is changing religion but not killing it. The days when a single patriarch (as with OPs example) could spew out anything he wants and his flock was forced to accept it because they had nowhere else to go are dying out. Those guys hate the internet for good reason: It’s harder to pass off their word as the word of a supernatural being. Same reason they hate education, science and other religions. On the other hand, the internet makes other, alternative religions more available. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/69 "2014-07-31T16:57:14Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Cite? For the bolded part, I mean. > [@razncain](#): > > ^^ I too, would appreciate any cite recommendations. Here’s a good summary: [Mormon Chronicles: Discussion of Mormon apostasy spreads](http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/02/discussion-of-mormon-apostasy-spreads.html) Note that the guy who called it an unprecedented apostasy, Marlin K. Jensen, a well-respected but quite liberal LDS General Authority and scholar, was soon thereafter relieved of his duties. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/70 "2014-07-31T18:30:25Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > **razncain** , I did in fact do some sharing during my journey out of Mormonism, and religion in general. [It’s here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=384571) While the thread in question is 8 years old, most of the ideas expressed therein still hold, i.e.; I grew up being taught a certain way, and I decided as an adult that I didn’t agree with it, and in fact had probably not felt that way for quite some time. As a relative newcomer here today was my first read of that most excellent thread. Add me to your appreciative audience, OneCentStamp. You know what’s the most disturbing about the Mormons? It’s not their beliefs and practices, it’s how damned competent and likeable they are. Those are powerful attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/71 "2014-07-31T18:41:46Z")
Of course it is. The internet is global access to information. Information kills religious faith. Cite: Girodano Bruno, Galileo Galilei, Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, Gregor Mendel ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/72 "2014-07-31T18:46:53Z")
This thread is pepping me up. A lot of the time I feel like the internet is just a machine for churning out stupid, so it’s good to be reminded that it’s most likely contributing to a net positive in the enlightenment department. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/73 "2014-07-31T19:12:40Z")
My guess is probably not. I have just as many cites to back me up as the OP. I agree that having access to vast quantities of information promotes skepticism, but among those I encounter, it does not in turn promote the desire to know the real facts. Instead, it seems to promote a kind of despairing ennui. Unequipped to determine the validity of sources, people now much more commonly say “I don’t know who to believe so I don’t even listen any more”, “they’re all crooks”, etc. Not knowing who to trust or what to believe is a very uncomfortable place, one from which the majority of humans flee as best they can. You know where to find a place of security, a place where you know that you and all your friends are safe, correct, and right? Fundamentalist religion is where. I just drove 2/3rds across the US and back, and in general, except for large cities, the first three, four, or five FM radio stations on the left hand side are evangelical Christian, all with the same mooing exegetes and the execrable Christian pop music. I feel many of the above-posting posters’ faith in the power of atheism is misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/74 "2014-07-31T21:22:59Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Here’s a good summary: [Mormon Chronicles: Discussion of Mormon apostasy spreads](http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/02/discussion-of-mormon-apostasy-spreads.html) > > Note that the guy who called it an unprecedented apostasy, Marlin K. Jensen, a well-respected but quite liberal LDS General Authority and scholar, was soon thereafter relieved of his duties. :dubious: Is the data [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history) reliable? If so, Mormonism is still growing, internet or no internet, “apostasy” or no “apostasy.” One might, perhaps, say - as that blog does - that > [@](#): > > some Internet-savvy Mormons are struggling to reconcile the correlated views they learned in church classes with the history they find on the Internet _but_ those numbers indicate that, by and large, Mormonism certainly isn’t being “killed,” neither by the internet nor by other foes. I would assume the same is true for religion is general. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **TokyoBayer** > The internet has caused what the leaders are calling a “great apostasy” and record numbers of people are leaving. See above. Even if “record numbers of people are leaving,” it seems as if they’re all being replaced - and then some. (Again: Assuming that [this wiki on LDS membership history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history) is reliable.) ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/75 "2014-07-31T21:42:02Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > See above. Even if “record numbers of people are leaving,” it seems as if they’re all being replaced - and then some. (Again: Assuming that [this wiki on LDS membership history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history) is reliable.) The problem with the Mormon church’s declared membership numbers is that they reflect the total number of people known to be baptized who are known or assumed to still be alive. Of course those numbers are going to climb very impressively: they are swelled both by children of LDS families who turn eight and get baptized, and by the results of the Church’s very extensive, very successful missionary efforts. However, they aren’t an accurate reflection of how many people are actually sitting in LDS church meetings on any given Sunday. A large portion of people who are baptized into the LDS church - a majority, in some places - fall away within the first year. But unless those people formally remove their names from the church’s records, they continue to count as Mormon, for purposes of the Church’s declared numbers. I formally resigned from the LDS church in 2010, but it took a bit of doing. They don’t make it convenient. Most people don’t bother to; they simply stop going. And thus they continue, unwittingly, to be part of the LDS church’s smashing success story. In my parents’ ward (congregation at the local level), there were about 500 baptized members living within the ward boundaries. Weekly attendance, however, hovered around half that. That 50% activity rate was accounted for by people who might be sick or out of town that week, and the very many people who didn’t go, hadn’t gone in years, had no intention of going ever again, but were still on the membership rolls. In congregations I served on my mission in Ecuador (where _huge_ numbers of people were baptized), there were places where I had 400 people on the rolls and 20 in church on Sunday - a 5% activity rate. So while the overall membership numbers seem to be growing impressively, I would argue that the actual number of people who are practicing Mormons might not be. In fact, it might be shrinking. I think the Mormons aren’t growing so much as they are burning through fresh people. This is a narrative that the LDS church, obviously, chooses not to play up. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/76 "2014-08-01T09:22:20Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Not knowing who to trust or what to believe is a very uncomfortable place, one from which the majority of humans flee as best they can. You know where to find a place of security, a place where you know that you and all your friends are safe, correct, and right? Fundamentalist religion is where. > > I just drove 2/3rds across the US and back, and in general, except for large cities, the first three, four, or five FM radio stations on the left hand side are evangelical Christian, all with the same mooing exegetes and the execrable Christian pop music. > > I feel many of the above-posting posters’ faith in the power of atheism is misplaced. “Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.”–Voltaire ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/77 "2014-08-01T09:38:18Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My guess is probably not. I have just as many cites to back me up as the OP. > > I agree that having access to vast quantities of information promotes skepticism, but among those I encounter, it does not in turn promote the desire to know the real facts. Instead, it seems to promote a kind of despairing ennui. Unequipped to determine the validity of sources, people now much more commonly say “I don’t know who to believe so I don’t even listen any more”, “they’re all crooks”, etc. > > Not knowing who to trust or what to believe is a very uncomfortable place, one from which the majority of humans flee as best they can. You know where to find a place of security, a place where you know that you and all your friends are safe, correct, and right? Fundamentalist religion is where. > > I just drove 2/3rds across the US and back, and in general, except for large cities, the first three, four, or five FM radio stations on the left hand side are evangelical Christian, all with the same mooing exegetes and the execrable Christian pop music. > > I feel many of the above-posting posters’ faith in the power of atheism is misplaced. I have some sympathy with much of what you say but overall I reach a different conclusion, particularly when it comes to change in already religious places (like much of the US). There are always going to be people who want to keep their horizons narrow and I agree with you entirely that the internet isn’t going to drag those people kicking and screaming into broadmindedness. Some people find life (and the internet) confusing and insecure and the internet might cause such people to cleave more tightly to something simplistic and (apparently) safe like fundamentalism. I think however that your analysis goes wrong by failing to consider where the various sorts of people are _now_ and where (if anywhere) internet driven change will cause them to go. Narrow minded people who crave the safety and simplicity of religion who live in a religious place are probably already - by and large - religious. I think the percentage of people who aren’t already religious, but which the internet might push into religion will be small, because of _where people like that are already likely to be_. Meanwhile I suspect that there will be plenty of people who are interested in and ready to embrace different worldviews but who have never been exposed to those worldviews because they have been swamped in a religious monoculture. In other words, I accept that the internet might cause movement _into_ as well as _out of_ religion, but I think that more people who the internet might push towards religion are already religious, while more people who the internet might push out of religion are already religious. The net result IMHO is likely to be that the internet causes outflow from rather than inflow into religion. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/78 "2014-08-05T19:14:11Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Christian apologist, [Josh McDowell,](http://www.christianpost.com/news/internet-the-greatest-threat-to-christians-apologist-josh-mcdowell-says-52382/) certainly seems to think so and is dismayed by it all. He thinks the internet is the greatest threat to Christians and cites several studies. That was a few years back in 2011. I like how Josh is also quick to let us know now that skeptics and atheists have equal access to their children they are also responsible for something else as well. Says Josh: > > Now there is this latest [link](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/09/is-the-internet-killing-religion/) I picked up off of CNN this year that has multiple studies showing since the internet has grown, those now religious unaffiliated have also grown considerably. Downey says he was able to control other factors such as “education, religious upbringing, rural/urban environments and income, to find a link that allowed him to “conclude, tentatively, that Internet use causes disaffiliation.” He also is quick to remind us that a reasonable person could disagree, and says he is the first to point out the correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation. > > If nothing else, I think it has certainly leveled the playing field. Religious people were already able to get their message out. This wasn’t always the case with the non-religious, but now they have their opinions right alongside the religious in the same format. And of course, Straight Dope is no stranger to agnostics and atheists if this [poll done by TWDuke](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=533099) is a reliable indicator, they are the majority in these parts by a considerable margin. But that is no suprise to any that post here on a regular basis. > > Just IMHO will do for me. If others want to turn it into a debate, I’m sure the moderators will know when to do that and put it in GD if that time comes. Otherwise, let’s just keep it casual and relaxed, we’ve shown before that not all religious topics have to go to GD. I think it is generation thing.Younger people are less religious and more atheists and agnostics. Where before religion was very part of the life so much part of the life and culture sorta of like the norm kids in the US go to school It just the US is slower than the UK and Europe when it comes to religion and politics.So they are just feeling the start of it now. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/79 "2014-08-10T21:06:41Z")
May we also pause to consider, that North America and already-mostly-secularist Western Europe are relatively easy pickings for the skeptic side; similarly denominations such as the Mormons or the Catholics who will mostly just shrug and shake their heads if you walk away. Different tale if your web surfers live in a place where among the dominant belief, the devout will _ **actually kill** _ those suspected of apostasy or heresy. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286/80 "2014-08-11T05:24:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > already-mostly-secularist Western Europe Lest we forget, most Europeans _are_ religious, one way or another. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=709206&page=3) thread, **Human Action** highlighted [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe) study, which shows that as of 2010, only some 20% of the EU-27 population did “not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force.” That leaves 80% who _do_ believe that stuff - an overwhelming majority. Also: No country - not even France, the most irreligious country in Europe - has an atheist majority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-killing-religion/694286.md?page=5)