# Is the Internet too Free? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344 "2001-05-13T22:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/1 "2001-05-13T22:27:04Z")
A new book by law professor Cass Sunstein suggests that there is too much freedom to post political opinions on the internet. He writes: > [@](#): > > What I will argue is not that people lack curiosity or that street corners > will disappear but instead that there is an insistent need for them, and that > a system of freedom of expression should be viewed partly in light of that > need. What I will also suggest is that there are serious dangers in a > system in which individuals bypass general interest intermediaries and > restrict themselves to opinions and topics of their own choosing. In > particular, I will emphasize the risks posed by any situation in which > thousands or perhaps millions or even tens of millions of people are > mainly listening to louder echoes of their own voices. A situation of this > kind is likely to produce far worse than mere fragmentation. see Chap 1: [http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sunstein-01republic.html](http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sunstein-01republic.html) His book was well-reviewed in today’s NYT Book Review, which said: > [@](#): > > ``` > Sunstein concludes that the Internet's polarizing tendencies can be fixed > only through careful initiatives by the government and private companies. > > ``` see: [http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/05/13/reviews/010513.13labatot.html](http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/05/13/reviews/010513.13labatot.html) IMHO Sunstein’s real problem is that conservatives now have a medium through which they can communicate. What do you think? Is the internet too free? Should there be voluntary or mandatory restrictions on internet politics? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/2 "2001-05-13T23:45:04Z")
I don’t see what this has to do conservative communications in particular, please explain. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/3 "2001-05-14T02:37:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I don’t see what this has to do conservative communications in particular, please explain. \*\* Sunstein is a prominent liberal; the internet is put to political use more by conservatives than by liberals. Hence my sarcastic comment. However, Sunstein’s thesis is presented as non-political. One can legitmately debate whether it would be better to have some sort of restrictions on political uses of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/4 "2001-05-14T03:42:34Z")
I can see the reasoning, as concentrated groups of extremists tend to congeal into political masturbation…but why single out internet discussion for this? What’s the difference between this and some wacko editorial rag? ---
**Author:** ![fecal\_nugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fecal\_nugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fecal_nugget)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/5 "2001-05-14T03:44:46Z")
No. There is no such thing as too much freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/6 "2001-05-14T03:50:04Z")
The internet brought to you by Coke, Barney and his funtime hour, the Republican Party and Yahoo! Why would we let the governments and big comapnies limit what we see to only that that those not make them look bad. If the internet was brought to you in part by Nike, would we hear about their sweatshops in China? I do not need a techonology encrusted thought police to tell me what is good and bad for me on this newfound ground that is about the only free space we all can have. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/7 "2001-05-14T04:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > … Cass Sunstein … writes: > > > [@](#): > > > > … What I will also suggest is that there are serious dangers in a system in which individuals bypass general interest intermediaries and restrict themselves to opinions and topics of their own choosing. In particular, I will emphasize the risks posed by any situation in which thousands or perhaps millions or even tens of millions of people are mainly listening to louder echoes of their own voices… Interesting topic, december. (Didn’t read the link though.) I agree that there are, “Serious dangers” when people bypass general intermediaries. I’m not sure what to do about it. Nor am I convinced that the internet invariably has this tendency. Yahoo, [CNN.COM](http://CNN.COM), and the SDMB are all examples of general intermediaries. And I’m not sure that less general intermediaries such as the Wall Street Journal, [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) and the Drudge Report are all that bad (at least insofar as their less general nature is concerned.) Also, I wasn’t too fond of the opposite extreme in the 1970s, when the news media was ruled by the 3 networks. On Liberal vs. Conservative: Let’s not forget the vested interest of the 5th Estate, ie the press. They have always made wisecracks about the reliability of internet sources. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/8 "2001-05-14T12:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Sunstein is a prominent liberal; the internet is put to political use more by conservatives than by liberals. \*\* Which explains why most of the Quebec City protest was planned and organized over the Internet, I presume. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/9 "2001-05-14T14:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > the internet is put to political use more by conservatives than by liberals I think we’re going to need a cite for that one, boss. Preferably not from American Heritage and [FreeRepublic.com](http://FreeRepublic.com), if you please. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/10 "2001-05-14T15:54:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > the internet is put to political use more by conservatives than by liberals > > I think we’re going to need a cite for that one, boss. > > Preferably not from American Heritage and [FreeRepublic.com](http://FreeRepublic.com), if you please. \*\* Here are three bits of evidence: 1. Remarkable success of the Drudge Report-- “2,527,247 VISITORS IN PAST 24 HOURS” see [http://www.drudgereport.com/](http://www.drudgereport.com/) 2. Near bankruptcy of Salon magazine 3. World Net Daily’success: > [@](#): > > WorldNetDaily is not only the Internet’s leading independent newssite by any standard you want to use, it also boasts the highest loyalty of any news source among readers. > > Because of the numbers – 2 million unique visitors a month – and the passionate support expressed by that audience, I knew that our Voluntary Subscription Payment program would create a significant new revenue resource for WorldNetDaily… see [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=22748](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22748) Maeglin – do you know of any evidence pointing in the the opposite direction? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/11 "2001-05-14T16:32:14Z")
Somehow Matt Drudge and World Net Daily’s self-congratulation should be taken as _evidence_? Surely I don’t need to provide a counterargument if the initial proposition cannot be borne out by its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/12 "2001-05-14T21:27:41Z")
I dunno, if I had to make a wager, I would imagine Conservatives being the leaders in the push for internet regulation. After all, they’re traditionally the folks who like to censure or silence things that they dislike. And aren’t they the ones who complain the most about libraries aren’t installing Internet filters “to protect the wee ones from the smut”? And giving control to corporations is _definitely_ a Conservative staple. Or, as Dubya himself put it, “There ought to be limits to freedom!” (visit [http://www.gwbush.com/](http://www.gwbush.com/) for an audio clip) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/13 "2001-05-14T22:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > **I dunno, if I had to make a wager, I would imagine Conservatives being the leaders in the push for internet regulation** This statement says more about anti-conservative propaganda than it does about real conservatives. In fact, the push for regulation of political content on the internet has come from a new book by a prominent liberal, which was favorably reviewed by the liberal NYT. To my knowledge, no conservative has supported this proposal. (Althought there are conservatives who want to regulate pornograpy on the net.) As you are evidently strongly in favor of free speech, I’d like to invite you to look at the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/14 "2001-05-15T03:28:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > In fact, the push for regulation of political content on the internet has come from a new book by a prominent liberal, which was favorably reviewed by the liberal NYT. To my knowledge, no conservative has supported this proposal. (Althought there are conservatives who want to regulate pornograpy on the net.) I believe that you misrepresent Sunstein. From the NYT: > [@](#): > > In the case of the Internet, such “must-carry” provisions would be relatively simple to implement: Web sites would be required to provide a hyperlink to opposing views. _Sunstein does not go so far as to suggest that the government impose such a requirement_, but he says it is not unreasonable for Web sites to regulate themselves voluntarily, in the interest of democratic dialogue. Emphasis added. Sunstein’s proposal seems pretty mild to me: encourage web sites to provide links to dissenting views. Indeed, Yahoo’s news pages seem to be consistent with his suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/15 "2001-05-15T08:10:03Z")
RE: Conservatives vs. Liberal use of the Internet… It depends on how you define “conservative” or “liberal”, and also how you define “use”. David Duke, for example… is he conservative? Some would say yes (I say he’s a nut who shouldn’t count, but that’s just me :D). Does he “use” the Internet? Of course. On the other hand, you can find some VERY extreme pornography on the 'Net. Hell, you can find extreme stuff, period - drugs, porn, methods of building nuclear weapons, etc. - is this “liberal”? It seems like it. Is this “using” the Internet? Yup. Note: I am not saying that all conservatives, or even basic conservative philosophy, matches routes with David Duke, nor am I trying to imply that liberalism leads to drugs, porn, and nuclear terrorism. _They’re just individual examples, people!_ Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![jharding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jharding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jharding)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/16 "2001-05-15T12:56:27Z")
“Is the Internet too free?” I had this same discussion about a year ago in a philosophy seminar. Funny how something as contemporary as the Internet can be debated with the words of musty and dusty old philosophers. In this instance we found ourselves referring to John Stuart Mill’s essay _On Liberty_. In this essay, JSM argues that no idea should be squelched or censored in any way, all ideas should be free to float around and the good ones will persist and live on, while the bad ones will live fleetingly and disappear amid a chorus of catcalls and derisive sneers. Mill’s point, and I tend to agree with him, is that even bad ideas have value. Mill said this in _On Liberty_, “But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.” To use an example with the Internet, consider the number of websites dedicated to racist/bigoted philosophies. While morally disturbing, Mill’s argument might proceed as follows. “Truth has a way of perservering; the only way to make sense of the truth is to allow falsity to exist.” Of course, Mill was arguably overly optimistic about human nature and our desire to search for the truth. As such, one who is committed to a racist philosophy tends not to read counterarguments and thus finds him/herself only re-reading only those arguments that tend to support the original position. Of course this is not a failure of freedom, but rather a failure of critical thinking. So to answer the OP’s question, jharding and JSMill (with me voting in proxy) opine that no, the Internet is not too free. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/17 "2001-05-16T13:17:13Z")
I read the Drudge Report and the World News Daily…and I’m as liberal as they come. So don’t think all those hits are by conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/18 "2001-05-16T14:02:01Z")
**december** > [@](#): > > In fact, the push for regulation of political content on the internet has come from a new book by a prominent liberal, which was favorably reviewed by the liberal NYT. To my knowledge, no conservative has supported this proposal. (Althought there are conservatives who want to regulate pornograpy on the net.) Incidentally, filtering software that conservatives wish to see employed in libraries has the fringe benefit of blocking out hard left-wing websites as well. I leave to my gentle readers to decide whether this is intentional censorship or not. **jharding** > [@](#): > > this essay, JSM argues that no idea should be squelched or censored in any way, all ideas should be free to float around and the good ones will persist and live on, while the bad ones will live fleetingly and disappear amid a chorus of catcalls and derisive sneers. Mill’s point, and I tend to agree with him, is that even bad ideas have value. Chapter 3 of _On Liberty_ has been batted around for years. It still remains nothing more than bankrupt, post-Enlightenment social Darwinism which presupposes some extrinsic idea of truth and an artificial, atemporal, reified notion of _reason_, concepts which have drawn fire from philosophers for the past forty years. Since I don’t think anyone really wants me to rehearse the basic arguments made by postmodernist and poststructuralist philosophers, I’d suggest that you pick up a Foucault Reader. Maybe you’ll even come across it in your philosophy class. MR ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/19 "2001-05-16T14:38:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\* > Incidentally, filtering software that conservatives wish to see employed in libraries has the fringe benefit of blocking out hard left-wing websites as well. I leave to my gentle readers to decide whether this is intentional censorship or not._\* This is interesting, if correct. I haven’t seen this point made in any conservative sources. I’m trying to imagine how the filtering software would be programmed to recognize hard-left politics. Do hard-left web sites use dirty words? Maybe the filtering software would knock them out for that reason. Maeglin – Do you have any more details or a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344/20 "2001-05-16T14:53:15Z")
How about this: [Peacefire’s **Blocked Site of the Day**](http://peacefire.org/BSOTD/) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-internet-too-free/65344.md?page=2)