# Is the iPod shuffle truely random **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037 "2006-10-26T23:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/1 "2006-10-26T23:25:43Z")
I’ve often wondered if the shuffle feature on iPods is truely a random algorithm or if for some reason or another it has a tendency to pick certain songs. I have noticed on my iPod that it seems that certain songs get repeated while many other songs never seem to get played at all. I wonder if the iPod notices what songs are played most often then decides to prioritize these songs when it is supposed to be random. Or am I just creating patterns where they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/2 "2006-10-26T23:34:29Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] I’ve often wondered if the shuffle feature on iPods is truely a random algorithm [/QUOTE] There’s no such thing as a truly random algorithm - it just isn’t possible. Unless it contains some kind of random source device, it’s probably using a pseudorandom algorithm seeded by the length of a keypress somewhere or something. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/3 "2006-10-26T23:56:01Z")
I would just like to point out that truly random in the sense that Mangetout is talking about can be different than picking some songs more often than others. Picking some songs more often than others indicates that distribution is not uniform. The probability of an individual song coming up could be different from one song to the next. This can be done in pseudo random algorithms and it can be done in truly random algorithms. Rolling a pair of dice and adding the faces is not a uniform distribution 7 comes up more than 3. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/4 "2006-10-27T00:28:36Z")
I have often thought that their randomizer needed some work. It seems to cluster around albums. But I haven’t yet taken the time to write a radomizer to see if mine would be any better. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/5 "2006-10-27T00:50:30Z")
I had a weird thing happen today. I have like 7,000 songs on my Ipod, and not being able to decide what I wanted to hear I started them all on shuffle. The second song was White Stripes, and the third song was Nine Inch Nails. So on the way home I start shuffle play again, and this time right around the 2nd or 3rd song I get a different White Stripes song and then a different Nine Inch Nails song. My old Dension DMP3 player was really weird, I had a mental connection with it. Out of hundreds of shuffled songs in a folder I could tell with alarming accuracy which was going to play next. I don’t know, there’s something non-random about these things. Maybe it’s just that humans are really good at picking up patterns and repeats, but I think it’s more than that. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/6 "2006-10-27T01:36:42Z")
If it were truly random then clustering would happen. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/7 "2006-10-27T01:38:34Z")
No, they’re random (or as random as possible). Apple gets the question all the time. But it’s just that people don’t really intuit randomness and think if you hear two songs from the same artist right after each other, it’s a sign that it’s not random. [See this](http://arts.guardian.co.uk/netmusic/story/0,,1889487,00.html) for one of many articles discussing the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/8 "2006-10-27T01:44:30Z")
[QUOTE=ouryL] If it were truly random then clustering would happen. [/QUOTE] It does. In fact I have 1,200 tunes on my Pod, and some of them practically NEVER play on shuffle. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/9 "2006-10-27T01:45:45Z")
[QUOTE=control-z] Maybe it’s just that humans are really good at picking up patterns and repeats, but I think it’s more than that. [/QUOTE] There’s a good article on this very topic from [Newsweek](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6854309/site/newsweek/). Apple engineers assured him that they use a “random” algorithm (they keep saying random but they mean pseudorandom). > [@Steven Levy](#): > > I explained this phenomenon to Temple University prof John Allen Paulos, an expert in applying mathematical theory to everyday life. His conclusion: it’s entirely possible that nothing at all is amiss with the shuffle function. It’s quite common for random processes (like coin tosses) to get unlikely results here and there, like runs of six heads in a row. Over a very long time, it evens out, but it’s hard for us to envision that. “We often interpret and impose patterns on random processes,” he says. . . . The human brain is so good at picking up patterns that it picks them up even when none exist. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/10 "2006-10-27T02:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] There’s a good article on this very topic from [Newsweek](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6854309/site/newsweek/). [/QUOTE] [hijack] The article linked by **CookingWithGas** and the article linked by **RealityChuck** are different articles in different publications, but they’re by the same author on the same niche topic ten months apart. As a freelance writer, all I can say is “way to go, Steve Levy” 🙂 [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/11 "2006-10-27T04:07:37Z")
Would it be possible to write a pseudorandom algorithm where patterns were avoided? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/12 "2006-10-27T04:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] Would it be possible to write a pseudorandom algorithm where patterns were avoided? [/QUOTE] That’s a pattern you will see. In fact, if you concentrate on avoiding dissonant patterns (which pretty much mean some sort of clustering or having black sheep) you will pretty mugh make the gamblers fallacy no longer a fallacy for your particular shuffling. Things you haven’t heard in a while are going to come up with a higher probability. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/13 "2006-10-27T07:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] Would it be possible to write a pseudorandom algorithm where patterns were avoided? [/QUOTE] No, because that would no longer be random, or pseudorandom even. It would be deliberately skewing the distribution, whereas randomness should ideally be the absence of any detectable influence on outcome. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/14 "2006-10-27T13:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Stealth Potato] No, because that would no longer be random, or pseudorandom even. It would be deliberately skewing the distribution, whereas randomness should ideally be the absence of any detectable influence on outcome. [/QUOTE] I think what users _really_ want is a perfectly distributed shuffle rather than “random” shuffle that can have significant clustersof the same type of music or same artist in it. At least that’s what I want. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/15 "2006-10-27T13:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] Would it be possible to write a pseudorandom algorithm where patterns were avoided? [/QUOTE] What’s a pattern? ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/16 "2006-10-27T14:38:46Z")
[QUOTE=control-z] I think what users _really_ want is a perfectly distributed shuffle rather than “random” shuffle that can have significant clustersof the same type of music or same artist in it. At least that’s what I want. 🙂 [/QUOTE] You are absolutely right, and why the player makers have (apparently) not picked up on this is beyond me. They should offer both types of “random” modes, at least. They could call the current version something like “true random” and the perfectly distributed shuffle version “smart random.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/17 "2006-10-27T15:11:58Z")
Technically any computer algorithm is incapable of doing anything random, because it’s being told exactly what to do on some level. I think it would be a better idea to prioritize songs by the amount of plays they’ve received, and choose a song based on whether you’ve heard it or not. I hear ‘my ipod likes this song’ or ‘I just heard this the other day’ all the time. The shuffle mode ought to be more customizable. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/18 "2006-10-27T16:24:26Z")
I’ve never used the shuffle function on my iPod Shuffle… ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/19 "2006-10-27T17:06:08Z")
I think my ideal solution would be for Itunes to pick one song randomly from my library, but not repeating a song until all had been played at least once. When they’ve all been played, reset that counter and start again. Poof: random selection, no clustering. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037/20 "2006-10-27T17:13:32Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] I think my ideal solution would be for Itunes to pick one song randomly from my library, but not repeating a song until all had been played at least once. When they’ve all been played, reset that counter and start again. Poof: random selection, no clustering. [/QUOTE] Not so fast. Suppose you have dozens of artists on your iPod. What if it plays 2, 3, or even 4 songs by the same artist in a row, or very close together? That’s what I think people are calling clustering. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ipod-shuffle-truely-random/378037.md?page=2)