# Is the J-C God evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305 "2002-08-17T05:33:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/61 "2002-08-18T07:45:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup\_du\_jour \* > \*\ ***Squish** , I, like you, have trouble with a god that orders the massacre of children and the rape of women. > > But, as I said before, I believe that those instances of great evil did not come from God, but were attributed to God by the Israelites to justify them. > > Shoot, if Americans thought that the US was God’s Chosen Land, it would give them a pretty big stick to wave around and whack anyone they didn’t like, wouldn’t it? > > IMHO, I think that the conquests of the OT have more of a historical or cultural signifigance than a theological one. > \<\<\\>\> Well Soup Du Jour. Doesn’t that theory kick out the “divine inspiration” of the Bible that I used to hear about? I had always been told that the bible was considered the directly communicated word of god. IMHO, either the Bible/Torah/Koran are divinely inspired or they ain’t. None of this “well, that doesn’t count!” business. OTOH, if these books **aren’t** divinely inspired then this whole debate kinda seems pointless. I do agree with you on the “God’s chosen land” allowing the people who live there to whack anyone they wanted. I believe that history confirms that people considering themselves “chosen by god” will inevitably decide to attack those heathen infidels down the street or in the next country. Regards. Testy ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/62 "2002-08-18T08:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ So, he’s also dispising us and threatening us. Is it supposed to make his case better? Once again, if this god was for real, he would be the greatest jerk ever. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/63 "2002-08-18T08:18:21Z")
oh…and I believed we were his beloved sons? I understand that actually we’re just piece of furnitures which are just good for the garbage bin? Where is this love you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/64 "2002-08-18T13:38:39Z")
> [@](#): > > As others have pointed out, it wasn’t really much of a sacrifice, was it? (In fact, as a literary device, it echoes far older Near Eastern myths–the sacrificial god who is reborn again–but that’s beside the point.) My question is, why was a sacrifice needed at all? Why couldn’t God simply say, “OK, you’re all absolved from sin. I forgive you”? Wouldn’t that be a better, more moral example of a just and loving God? Also, some formulations of Christianity don’t depend on substitutionary atonement as a tenet. Bishop John Shelby Spong (who’s apparently spent most of his career really pissing off literalist fundamentalist types by championing such terribly heretical ungodly things as speaking strongly against the homophobia and misogyny shot all through much of institutional Christianity and its more unfortunate dogmas) in particular has strongly argued that the whole Christ-as-rescuer thing has desperately got to be shed if his religion is to continue to grow and survive. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/65 "2002-08-18T14:27:13Z")
Appreciate your thoughful reply, dreamer. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > I’ve been thinking about how I was going to answer your question \*\*RedFury \*\* and I hope this will be sufficient enough. At church tonite the message was about reverence for God. I was reminded how, though I give him all my love and devotion, I do not have the smallest amount of understanding of his mysteries or his ways. Yes I have a personal relationship with him and I regard him as my Lord, Savior and Father, but also I have an awe and respect for him that is more deeply rooted in my heart than I can explain. \*\* You do realize, don’t you, that the above statement is completely nonsensical to me. How can it not be? Here you have a ‘God’ that needs to be ‘revered’ and yet one whom you do _not have the smallest amount of understanding_! Why not bow to “Ummmph The Magnificent”? > [@](#): > > \*\*During worship we sang a song which I would like to share with you because in it’s few words, it shows exactly what my relationship with God is. > > \ \*\* Thanks for sharing, I mean it. Unfortunately, those songs do nothing to further my understanding of why anyone would believe in something unknowable. Or revere someone who’s “known attributes” are beyond nonsensical. > [@](#): > > \*\*I may not _know_ “all things” and I am fully aware that I could be wrong in many things. But I do know I love him and though I have never seen him or touched him there is no mistaking what I feel in my heart. \*\* All I’ve gathered so far is that you **don’t** know what is it you’re loving. And what’s worse, you can’t possibly know it either. From my POV, a lesson in futility and irrationality. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/66 "2002-08-18T15:04:54Z")
Well **RedFury** , time and time again I’ve been ridiculed here for my “beliefs” so it’s not the first time coming from you. I’m sorry there’s no other way for me to explain him to you, there just isn’t. I know whom I love. It is God. It is HE. The Creator of this magnificant world and the creator of me. You have to want a relationship with God to have one. I know many of you don’t believe he exists so that’s not possible for you. I honestly believe that most of you wouldn’t be here in this forum continually discussing God if you didn’t at least have the slightest bit of curiousity about him and why others claim to “know” him. Or you’re are here to say you know you’re right and I’m wrong. Whatever the case may be I wonder why you continue to want to discuss someone who you think is so evil and horrible? If I didn’t believe in Hitler and half the world did, I sure wouldn’t want to waste any of my time talking about him. ::expects trouble for the last part of this post:: ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/67 "2002-08-18T18:08:35Z")
**Dreamer** what version of the Old Testament are you quoting scripture from? Because I’ve found a few discrepancies in what you’ve posted in comparison to my King James Version. I think I’ll check some other bible versions and see what’s up. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/68 "2002-08-18T18:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \*You have to want a relationship with God to have one. I know many of you don’t believe he exists so that’s not possible for you. I honestly believe that most of you wouldn’t be here in this forum continually discussing God if you didn’t at least have the slightest bit of curiousity about him and why others claim to “know” him. Or you’re are here to say you know you’re right and I’m wrong. Whatever the case may be I wonder why you continue to want to discuss someone who you think is so evil and horrible? If I didn’t believe in Hitler and half the world did, I sure wouldn’t want to waste any of my time talking about him. Your comment would make sense, **dreamer** , if religion had no political impact. However, religion is deeply involved with politics right now, Christianity in particular seeking to extend its grasp and inculcate its values into all types of legislation. That makes me feel obligated to point out the shaky, almost nonexistent, foundation of the beliefs that the political agenda Christianity pushes is based on. People barely understand the first thing about their denomination’s god, but they can firmly state that he’s foresquare against stem cell research? Based on a book that was written over fifteen hundred years before germ theory? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? Christianity affects my life deeply, in a very negative way, right at this moment. I’d much rather just let you alone, to delude yourself however you saw fit, as long as nobody was getting hurt. But religion has, from my perspective, become a great agent for evil in my country. These arguments serve as a dialog by which both participants and observers can understand that not everyone buys into the absurd foundations of these religions. That religion isn’t some huge, unstoppable behemoth with an all-powerful deity behind it; instead, it’s a bunch of faithful followers of something they themselves don’t understand, who can be easily made to retreat into the “mysterious ways” and “there must be a purpose we don’t understand” defense. On the basis of such flimsy rationalization, my rights are being denied or actively eroded, my government is being co-opted, and crucial advances in technology and scientific understanding are being quashed. In arguments such as this one, on and off the board, I like to make sure that point gets across as often as possible. So, to sum up, I really don’t want a personal relationship with your god. I want you to keep your personal relationship with god out of my life. Because, at its root, your belief in god is simply wish-fulfillment and elitist fantasy coupled with a desperate need for a reason to hold on to an outdated status quo. At least, that’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/69 "2002-08-18T18:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*I honestly believe that most of you wouldn’t be here in this forum continually discussing God if you didn’t at least have the slightest bit of curiousity about him and why others claim to “know” him. Or you’re are here to say you know you’re right and I’m wrong. Whatever the case may be I wonder why you continue to want to discuss someone who you think is so evil and horrible? If I didn’t believe in Hitler and half the world did, I sure wouldn’t want to waste any of my time talking about him.[/SIZE] \*\* But those who believe Hitler was _good_ are dangerous. Sublimating your natural morality to what others tell you puts you in danger of following a “Hitler”. **dreamer** , you seem to have lucked out in that you belong to a church that believes in a god of love, but what if you were brought up in the church of Fred Phelps? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/70 "2002-08-18T19:53:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Voyager \* > **Well, as an atheist I suppose I am in the absence of God’s love now, and if hell is like Earth, I can deal with it.** Well, hell would be earth, but without any Christians. And, shall I smirk, this is punishment? I only with _more_ gods existed, making the ultimate hell an atheist’s paradise! ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/71 "2002-08-18T20:31:36Z")
**Dreamer** , **MrVisible** very eloquently stated my point of view. We’re not discussing Ohrmazd and Ahriman here because Zoroastrian beliefs aren’t influencing our government or affecting our lives or those of our countrymen. Christians are worshipping a deity who, by what they claim are his own words, has done horrific things and they want this country to abide by that deity’s rules. _That_ is what makes your beliefs our business. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/72 "2002-08-18T22:32:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Doesn’t that theory kick out the “divine inspiration” of the Bible that I used to hear about? I had always been told that the bible was considered the directly communicated word of god. > IMHO, either the Bible/Torah/Koran are divinely inspired or they ain’t. None of this “well, that doesn’t count!” business. **Testy,** , yes, it does, doesn’t it? Although some believe otherwise, I’ve never thought that the Bible was the directly communicated Word of God. I’ve never made that claim. If The Bible was created by human hands, it is flawed somehow. Humans are flawed. It’s a good thing I worship God and not The Bible. Otherwise, I’d be in a pretty big mess. > [@](#): > > My question is, why was a sacrifice needed at all? Why couldn’t God simply say, “OK, you’re all absolved from sin. I forgive you”? Wouldn’t that be a better, more moral example of a just and loving God? **Squish** , I agree. But, the God that I worship already does that. Anyone can ask forgiveness, and it is freely given. > [@](#): > > Christians are worshipping a deity who, by what they claim are his own words, has done horrific things and they want this country to abide by that deity’s rules. That is what makes your beliefs our business. Wow, that’s a massive generalization. Do all Christians fall into this boat, or just the most vocal? Actually, I would want all of the world to follow Christ’s model of love and compassion, not the Israelites’ model of legalism and retribution. IMHO, it would be a dark day when this nation establishes a state religion, Christian or otherwise. Believe it or not, I actually oppose the “under God” in the pledge and “In God We Trust” on currency. These phrases only establish the mentality that was so indicative of the ancient Israelites. The whole “whack-em-with-a-stick” mentality. By the way, who is this John Shelby Spong? What is his alternative theology to atonement? I’d really like to hear another view. That’s what makes the study of theology interesting! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/73 "2002-08-18T22:34:33Z")
Yes, I’m with **MrVisible** too. And speaking only for myself of course, I would add that I also like to discuss Zoroastrianism. All religions are fascinating to me, as cultural phenomena. It’s amazing to me that so many people can swallow something that seems so utterly absurd to me. Many believers of one religion will think other religions are absurd, but can’t see the absurdity in their own beliefs. Have you Christians ever checked out Zoroastrianism? In some ways, it makes more sense than your stories. And what **grendel72** said. It’s dangerous and irresponsible to let others do your moral thinking for you. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/74 "2002-08-18T23:10:18Z")
Well said **MrVisible**. I do understand where you are coming from and I admire your stern desire to fight what you believe to be ignorance. I guess I feel the exact same way, only on the other side. > [@](#): > > Christianity in particular seeking to extend its grasp and inculcate its values into all types of legislation. It’s not only their Christian values, it’s the values they have as people, which they have a right to fight to keep in our country. > [@](#): > > People barely understand the first thing about their denomination’s god I understand his love for his creation. > [@](#): > > But religion has, from my perspective, become a great agent for evil in my country That is most definately something I do not comprehend (if you mean God=“religion”)and something I was not completely aware of that people felt so strongly until coming here to the SDMB. > [@](#): > > I’d much rather just let you alone, to delude yourself however you saw fit I of course would not rather leave you alone and allow you to delude yourself although I try to be as non-pushy as possible here if only to get the other side accross. > [@](#): > > That religion isn’t some huge, unstoppable behemoth with an all-powerful deity behind it Religion - no, God - yes (minus the behemoth part) > [@](#): > > I want you to keep your personal relationship with god out of my life. That is fine but I’d advise you to no longer read my posts then because I will not stop sharing what I believe to be his truth and love for humanity just the same as I don’t expect you to stop fighting against it. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/75 "2002-08-18T23:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \*Well said **MrVisible**. It’s not only their Christian values, it’s the values they have as people, which they have a right to fight to keep in our country. So, your values are completely detatched from your religion, then? Your religion has no impact whatsoever on these values? Interesting. Perhaps, since you’d much rather leave me alone, you might want to start a movement inside your religion to try and remove yourselves from politics. Stop trying to impose your values on others who don’t share them, since your values, as you’ve inferred, are not part of your religion anyway, and are based on an indefensible faith, which is incomprehensible to those who don’t share it. That way, we can stop having these conversations, and I can stop reading your posts. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/76 "2002-08-18T23:43:39Z")
[sweat beads on brow]Um, where did **dreamer** say s/he’d leave you alone? I kind of thought the opposite was the case. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/77 "2002-08-18T23:48:26Z")
Hey, wow… you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/78 "2002-08-18T23:57:13Z")
I have nothing more to add to that… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/79 "2002-08-19T00:01:01Z")
dreamer now says: > [@](#): > > \*\*I will not stop sharing what I believe to be his truth and love for humanity \*\* but a few hours ago, she wrote: > [@](#): > > \*\*I was reminded how, though I give him all my love and devotion, I do not have the smallest amount of understanding of his mysteries or his ways \*\* So, I ask: which is it? You sound quite confused. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305/80 "2002-08-19T00:13:00Z")
I’m actually really curious, **dreamer** , as to the relation between your religion and your values. As I asked in my earlier post: > [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by **dreamer** Well said MrVisible. It’s not only their Christian values, it’s the values they have as people, which they have a right to fight to keep in our country. > > So, your values are completely detatched from your religion, then? Your religion has no impact whatsoever on these values? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-j-c-god-evil/124305.md?page=5)