# Is the knowledge of history important to you or is it just trivia? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697 "2009-05-07T23:18:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/41 "2009-05-09T15:00:57Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > To start with a basic example: If you live anywhere except Europe/Middle East and speak a language that isn’t a “Native” language, it’s because between 100-500 years ago people in Europe showed up wherever you are now and said to the people living there: “Nice country. We’ll take it.” > British Imperial History tends to be a… difficult thing to study if you’re in any way Pro-Empire, incidentally. As a person who speaks English and doesn’t live in England, I think this is really important to understand, and I don’t think most Americans do (wouldn’t know about others). Since I’ve been teaching history to my kids, I’ve been reading this year about 1600-1850, and now I’m reading through the next book 1850-modern as prep for next year. It seems silly, because I did _sort of_ know about the wide spread of colonialism and that Africa had been parceled up between the European powers, etc., but I had never truly realized the incredible extent of colonialism. Europeans pretty much tried to take over the whole world! Anyplace at all was up for grabs! It was kind of an overwhelming realization, and I _should_ have known it before, but I just never really got the whole picture. (Probably this means that I’m hopelessly ignorant.) ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/42 "2009-05-09T17:32:34Z")
When “Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader?” (or whatever it was) was briefly popular, the local newspaper had a fluffy feature article with a sample quiz for its readers in a variety of subjects, contributed by elementary school teachers of various subjects. The history teacher’s contribution was “What are the three types of columns in ancient Greek architecture?” When I read that, I rolled my eyes-- that was precisely the type of trivial stuff that made history so boring in elementary school in my opinion. Even without the critical thinking abilities necessary to really get a lot out of history, I think it’s important to lay the groundwork for a broad (if shallow) understanding of world history in young children (which can be expanded upon as the child matures or shows interest in various aspects)… and emphasizing things like this, rather than the migrations of peoples over time, or the rise and fall of various religions, or colonialism in Africa, or the development of the scientific method, or… no, it’s “memorize and repeat back to the teacher the three types of ancient Greek columns,” as opposed to looking at how Greek architecture served to influence other times and cultures. Or, if you went to a strict Baptist school like I did, in what order did the apostle Paul visit various cities, as opposed to what Paul _did_ in those cities that still affects Christianity to this day. I finally got around to taking a few Western Civ classes at the university a while back, and things weren’t much different there. My first quiz: “Name three architectural features introduced during the Renaissance in Italy.” _sigh_ And it continued in that vein. “What year was Galileo convicted of heresy?,” instead of “Explain how religious persecution affected Galileo’s research.” At least our essay assignments allowed us to do that kind of critical thinking, but the majority of the class-- quizzes and exams, lectures and presentations-- dealt with repetition of facts, facts, facts, with no attempt at interpretation, or to show common threads, or even to present alternate views. If my only exposure to history had been in history classes, I’d probably think of history as nothing but a bunch of atomic, unconnected pieces of trivia. McCormick’s reaper! Aqueducts! The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers! Krakatoa!Luckily, I like reading non-fiction, and have managed to stumble into areas of interest (and into interesting authors) of my own accord by picking up random books. I also have managed to take non-history classes that still manage to teach a lot of history. I learned more about the dynamics that led to the Industrial Revolution in a religion class (a single semester looking at the Abrahamic religions) than in Western Civ: 1600-present. I learned about colonialism in Africa and South America from another religion class (on syncretism), the development of the scientific method through a philosophy of science course. Do I think history is important? Yeah; I feel like I better understand the news by knowing the intertwined history and rivalry of Islam and Christianity. I feel like I better understand and appreciate civil rights issues, political issues, and continuing debates on science by having studied the age of enlightenment. Articles on tensions in Africa are made more clear by having studied colonialism. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/43 "2009-05-09T19:36:38Z")
BTW, have any of you ever read the Horrible History books? They’re aimed at kids, but for adults they’re a good primer if there’s an area of history you’re curious about but don’t have time to research thoroughly. Dangermom, they’d be great for homeschooling, if you don’t have them already (they have quiz books too, and there’s Ghastly Geography, Murderous Maths and so on too). They focus on the more kid-friendly bits of history, like what being ‘hung, drawn and quartered’ means, as well as little silly stories that help you remember the more significant details. Course, I expect you all know them already, but they’re worth mentioning just in case you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/44 "2009-05-09T19:55:09Z")
Just knowing the raw dates of various events is mere trivia: It doesn’t help one’s understanding of the world to know that it was 1492 when Columbus reached America, and someone who thought it was 1491 or 1493 would have just as strong a grasp of history as someone who knew nothing other than the correct year. But understanding how different events and their cultural background fit together, well, there’s some real value in that. Knowing the safeguards the Roman Republic put in place against dictatorship, and the way in which those safeguards failed, for instance, could be useful guidance in building safeguards into our own democracy, and watching for the signs of failure. ---
**Author:** ![PeacePlease](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@PeacePlease](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeacePlease)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/45 "2009-05-09T20:19:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > One of my closest friends, Anna, was born and reared in Rome (and came to live in Alabama- how messed up is that?). She makes me salivate with envy when she talks about high school field trips. In Alabama our field trips included the Capitol and Archives (in _fourth grade_, when you really really care about primary sources and the legislative process), the Coca Cola bottling plant, and the county courthouse. When Anna, who’s from a middle class family (not rich and not poor), was in school field trips included medieval Cathedrals, castles, Renaissance palaces, the Vatican- all within an easy ride of the Catholic school she attended. > > I can’t imagine living in a city that has massive and beautiful buildings that _predate Christianity_ (think of that- the city has been around so long it’s changed Creators!), where on a long walk you’ll see sites associated with the Etruscans, Venus, the Gracchi, Julius Caesar, Pope Gregory I, Charlemagne, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. for thousands of years. The “Michelangelo to Mussolini” years are almost like the _Godfather III_ (which, of course, takes place in Rome) in terms of their history; it’s almost overkill. She mentioned her uncle digging a well on his farm outside of Rome and finding a terracotta statue of Minerva- and she mentions it in a ‘no big thing’ sort of way, like I’d mention finding an arrowhead- it wasn’t even the point of the story (which was about digging wells and how finding the statue was an annoyance or would have been if he’d followed the law and reported it [which could have meant archaeologists coming which would have delayed his well]). > > Anyway, I’ve asked her- a thousand times- about this, and the strangest thing is she prefers history _here_. She says we have more respect for it (not all of us obviously, but those who appreciate it) because it’s so rare to come across a living or substantive reminder of it. She laughs (in a ‘that’s so cool’ rather than a condescending way) when a building can’t be torn down because it’s 140 years old, or at the way some southerners venerate their ancestry “all the way back to the Civil War” (by which time Rome was way beyond retirement age). > She says that because Rome is so immersed in history it’s absolutely impossible to grow up there without knowing 2500 years of history- you’re going to know who Pius IX was or the Borgias or the Gracchi or Count Ciazzo or Nero simply because they’re still there- "turn left at the statue of Victor Emmanuel, go til you get to the fountain of the Vestal virgins where you turn right, you’ll pass Pauline Bonaparte’s palace on your right and when you do the Taco Bell will be on your left, can’t miss it; if you see the Botticelli museum you’ve gone a mile too far). But, she says, people are so mired in it they don’t really notice it either, it’s osmosified more than revered. She’s way more interested in the fact I grew up on an Alabama cattle farm than I am that she grew up in a middle class apartment complex on a lot that was once inhabited by gladiators. Your writing is so so damn evocative, Sampiro it deserved a repeat performance! I’m so nuts about you!!! I wish a was gay. Oh, and a man! I didn’t fall in love with history until pretty recently. I thought it was definitely one of the more boring, insipid classes in high school and I completely skipped it in college. Now, as a result of getting into historical fiction, I’ve learned so much and explored so many other areas of non-fiction and it’s true, it’s all so fascinating! I recently traveled to London and just Oh.My.God. I think its quite similar to Rome…we got off the tube, walked up the stairs, turned around and were looking directly at The Tower. THE TOWER OF LONDON. I think your friend is dead-on when she says that you are just so used to it living in a great, historical city that your meh about it. Whereas you get a chick from Arizona in London and every moment was a WOW moment. You can touch something that Henry VIII might have touched. You can see parts of the old Roman city wall. Just WOW. And the fact that, like you said, in a couple of hours you can go to an entirely new, very old, historical city or place and have more WOW moments. Can you say jealous!!! I don’t dig the minutiae (dates etc.) as much as the full-bodied hiSTORY, but since I’m mostly enamored of and well-read when it comes to English history, especially Medieval and Tudor forward I do tend to know dates from my favorite time period. And I’m another one that is not very interested in the history of my own country. I watched the mini-series ‘John Adams’ and was, like, wow these were pretty cool dudes but I never had the interest to take it much further. I don’t know why…it’s just what one likes, I suppose. I guess most of this is off-topic, but I admire you history teachers. You’ve got a tough gig! I don’t know how you make it more interesting to a young audience. I do know, on retrospect, that my high school world history teacher was very enthusiastic and tried so hard. I feel bad that I didn’t appreciate it at the time. If I were to return to school, history would definitely be on the top of my list to study. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/46 "2009-05-09T20:48:53Z")
I love history, everything becomes history, all our drama, all our stories, all of us. Knowledge of the history of my country is important to me but I’d also know quite a bit about world history. I like when I walk through the streets of Dublin the historical resonances that certain places have. I love looking at old photos and seeing how times have changed (or not). I’m aware that these things are probably of scant importance to many people. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/47 "2009-05-10T03:50:59Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > As a person who speaks English and doesn’t live in England, I think this is really important to understand, and I don’t think most Americans do (wouldn’t know about others). Since I’ve been teaching history to my kids, I’ve been reading this year about 1600-1850, and now I’m reading through the next book 1850-modern as prep for next year. It seems silly, because I did _sort of_ know about the wide spread of colonialism and that Africa had been parceled up between the European powers, etc., but I had never truly realized the incredible extent of colonialism. Europeans pretty much tried to take over the whole world! Anyplace at all was up for grabs! It was kind of an overwhelming realization, and I _should_ have known it before, but I just never really got the whole picture. (Probably this means that I’m hopelessly ignorant.) What’s _really_ interesting is that, until the mid-19th Century, most Colonial Expansion was almost accidental- British Traders (for example) in somewhere like Ghana would find themselves being attacked by unfriendly Natives every Tuesday right after lunch, and so they’d appeal to the Crown to send some soliders and a frigate to defend their trade interests (and staff), and then _more_ Tribes would take affront to this and attack, causing the soldiers to request reinforcements, and then the tribes that didn’t like the tribes who were attacking the British decide to get onside with the foreigners to get guns and settle a few old scores, and the whole thing snowballs from there and suddenly what began as a Palm Oil harvesting concern operating from a hut and a fishing jetty in some part of Africa that no-one had ever heard of before ended up turning into a British Colony with the Palm Oil Concession for the entire Cornish Fishing Fleet or something like that. Colonialism and Imperialism for the sake of it really didn’t kick off until the 1840s, and it wasn’t until the Berlin Conference in 1884 that the whole exercise really became about seeing who could colour a map of the world in their National Colour first. Most of this was carried out under the guise of the “Three Cs”:_Commerce, Christianity, and Civilisation_. Ironically, the French are now the only European power with significant overseas territories, in case anyone was wondering. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/48 "2009-05-10T04:07:48Z")
If course, even for those who live in the UK, it’s not like English is the only language that’s ever been spoken on these isles - and it’s not the only language spoken on these isles now - and I don’t mean that Bengali and Urdu, among others, are major languages; I mean official languages of the UK. Why is speaking Welsh a big enough issue that road signs in Wales are written in both languages? Why has the number of fluent Welsh speakers increased in the past twenty years? Why is Scotland called Loch Ness instead of Lake Ness? Why was a certain town called Londonderry twenty years ago, and is now almost always called Derry? You need some knowledge of history to answer those questions, and sometimes those answers can be important. Especially in a sectarian pub in Derry. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/49 "2009-05-10T08:38:06Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > BTW, have any of you ever read the Horrible History books? I’ve read one (kings of England) and liked it a lot. To me there’s no better light-hearted but totally accurate and “chock full of historical goodies” (many of them new to me) than [Larry Gonick’s Cartoon History](http://www.larrygonick.com/html/pub/pub.html) series. They’re especially great for Chinese/Japanese history (a total black hole of knowledge to most westerners, myself included) and a great primer on all others. They literally start with the creation and go up through the present (or the newest one will- it’s released in October). They even have an annotated cartoon bibliography! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/50 "2009-05-11T15:34:20Z")
_Do you feel history in general is just useless trivia (memorizing dates of kings and wars)?_ All too often it’s taught that way, but fortunately I had some great history teachers over the years and came from a family with a deep and passionate sense of history, which I inherited in spades. There are some key years I’d expect any well-informed person to know the significance of (1066, 1415, 1776, 1787, 1861, 1929, 1939, 1963, 1974 and 2001, just off the top of my head), but otherwise I think concepts are more important than years. My wife and I both love history, and we’ve done my level best to infect our sons with the same affliction! We can’t know where we’re going if we don’t know where we’ve been. History provides the context for so much of the world in which we now find ourselves. _Do you think knowledge of your own country’s history is important but other countries/continents are not important?_ Other than British history and military history generally, I’ve always been far more interested in American history than any other country’s or continent’s. That’s not to say they’re not important, though. _Do you think history of a certain time period is important (date-of-birth minus 10 years) but anything before that is trivia?_ Definitely not. We still live with the consequences of the establishment of the major religions, the Crusades, the establishment of slavery in the U.S., the Industrial Revolution, and so many other things that happened far more than ten years before the birth of anyone now alive. _Do you feel “those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it” is just an empty platitude regurgitated by history teachers?_ No. I think there’s a lot of truth to it. _If you had children, do you think it would be more productive for society if they were given the option to substitute history classes for other subjects such as math or English?_ No. They should learn all of that, and if I have anything to do with it, they will. That said, English skills and an appreciation of history will lead to a more rewarding life for most people than any math skills beyond being able to balance your checkbook and to understand and prepare a budget, IMHO. _Do you favor the “Great Man” theory of history or a “bottom up social movements” version?_ Social movements have, overall, been more important to the broad sweep of history, but there have been several crucial times in history when a Great (or Terrible) Man (or Woman) has made a big difference. We would live in a vastly different world without the key roles played, in their times, by such people as Elizabeth I, George Washington, Adolf Hitler and Nelson Mandela. ---
**Author:** ![Creaky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e68b1a/32.png) [@Creaky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creaky)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697/51 "2009-05-11T20:11:12Z")
\*\*Do you feel history in general is just useless trivia (memorizing dates of kings and wars)? \*\* Yes, unless you’re going to be a history teacher or work for the State Department. \*\*Do you think knowledge of your own country’s history is important but other countries/continents are not important? \*\* No, because if you’re going to take an interest in history you’d be selling yourself short by only learning part of the story. What other countries did affects your own history. **Do you think history of a certain time period is important (date-of-birth minus 10 years) but anything before that is trivia?** I’m not sure any period of history is more important than any other. **Do you feel “those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it” is just an empty platitude regurgitated by history teachers?** Yes, because I don’t think that people ever really change. Outwardly the laws that make them seem like they’re progressing or becoming more enlightened may force them to change on the surface, but their nature stays the same, so history will be be repeated no matter what we do. \*\*If you had children, do you think it would be more productive for society if they were given the option to substitute history classes for other subjects such as math or English? \*\* No, in spite of how I feel I still think that studying history is part of a good education. If nothing else it gives you one more thing to make conversation with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-knowledge-of-history-important-to-you-or-is-it-just-trivia/495697.md?page=2)