# Is the lack of black fathers the true reason for racial disparity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010 "2020-10-15T13:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/21 "2020-10-16T03:16:49Z")
To me it just makes sense if you have 2 parents working together to raise the kids they have a better chance at succeeding in getting a good education and a good education can help end the cycle of poverty in which many problems start. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/22 "2020-10-16T04:32:20Z")
Do you believe this to be true for same sex couples as well. Are two mommies better than one? How about two daddies? I ask this because _The Federalist_ and Black _Dad’s Count_ are in favor of “traditional” families. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/23 "2020-10-16T04:36:15Z")
Yes, now please hush up. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/24 "2020-10-16T04:38:43Z")
Excuse me? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/25 "2020-10-16T04:55:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are over 4 million black households with single parents. There are about 460,000 black males in prison. Cutting the numbers of imprisoned males in half and assuming that all of those are fathers who would otherwise be living with their families it would only reduce the number of single mother black families by 5%. I think there’s a knock on effect because it leads to an imbalance in the sexes. Less men available means less incentive for men to settle down and get married, and women are less likely to hold out for that before having kids, especially when single parenting has become normalised. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/26 "2020-10-16T11:13:36Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > I work in juvenile detention, and have only anecdotal information. I looked briefly for statistics to back what I have noted personally, but mostly came across articles like this one. > [How the Family Court System Fails Black Fathers – and How You Can Help](https://familylawyermagazine.com/articles/family-court-fails-black-fathers-how-you-can-help/) > I have been perplexed a few times with situations where a teen, or multiple teens from the same family, have a white mom and a black dad, and the mom is, frankly, terrible to the point of going to prison on charges of drug dealing, while the dad is a law-abiding employed citizen who wants to be an involved parent but cannot manage to either get or retain custody of his children. In the worst case, while drug-dealing mom was incarcerated, the dad could get custody, and he would make his daughters stay on the straight and narrow, go to school, etc. However, once mom was released from prison, the three daughters would be returned to mom over the dad’s objections. Mom would go back to letting the girls run around, skip school, use alcohol and drugs, and eventually everybody got arrested. I saw that cycle happen a couple of times with that family. I can’t say how typical that sort of situation is, but I can say that sometimes it does get that stupid. Sometimes the lack of involvement by black fathers is caused by the court and family services, not by the father’s own choice. If anyone can come up with statistics on that, I would love to see it. IMHO, that will be less about race and more about the courts favouring children being in the custody of the mothers if there’s any hope at all for them to be an acceptable parent. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/27 "2020-10-16T13:34:28Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Do you believe this to be true for same sex couples as well. Are two mommies better than one? How about two daddies? > > I ask this because _The Federalist_ and Black _Dad’s Count_ are in favor of “traditional” families. Well frankly its a different topic, but I dont have any personal experience because all the gay couples I have known didnt have children. The other gay people I knew who had children from a former relationship and shared custody. I read in the news of gay couples adopting or having a kid together where they are both parents but I dont personally know any so I cant give an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/28 "2020-10-16T13:35:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@puddleglum](#): > > > > There are over 4 million black households with single parents. There are about 460,000 black males in prison. Cutting the numbers of imprisoned males in half and assuming that all of those are fathers who would otherwise be living with their families it would only reduce the number of single mother black families by 5%. > > I think there’s a knock on effect because it leads to an imbalance in the sexes. Less men available means less incentive for men to settle down and get married, and women are less likely to hold out for that before having kids, especially when single parenting has become normalised. I work at a place where the black female to male ratio is about 5 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/29 "2020-10-16T14:16:15Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It depends on what racial disparity. For instance the poverty rate among white single mother **lead** households is three times higher than the poverty rate among black married couple lead families. The difference in percentage in poverty between white and black married couple **lead** families is only 4.5%. The difference in poverty rate between married and single **lead** families is 36%.  The word you want is **“led”**. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/30 "2020-10-16T17:54:55Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > IMHO, that will be less about race and more about the courts favouring children being in the custody of the mothers if there’s any hope at all for them to be an acceptable parent. I suspect a preference for placement with the mother factored into the situations I have seen. I also suspect a preference, conscious or not, for placement with the white parent over the black parent may have also factored into the decisions. My point is that I don’t think lack of black fathers is the “true reason” for racial disparity, although it is a factor. I think racial disparity is a complex issue with multiple causes and multiple effects, many of which feed vicious cycles, so that “racial disparity is a cause for the lack of black fathers” is also true. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/31 "2020-10-16T18:52:43Z")
puddleglum focuses on men actively in prison at any given point, but that’s misleading. [As of 2001, one in every 3 black boys could expect to go to prison within his lifetime](https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/). Sit with that for a minute. Imagine what it does to a marriage for one member to spend time in prison, and how likely the marriage is to survive that experience. Imagine how it affects a person’s marriage prospects to have been in prison. Consider how a prison record affects a person’s earning potential, ability to get loans, and otherwise navigate the financial world, and what implications that has for marriage. Marriage rates aren’t only affected by currently being in prison. Imprisonment has lifelong consequences. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/32 "2020-10-16T20:03:09Z")
But would so many end up in prison if they grew up with fathers in the home? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/33 "2020-10-16T20:04:27Z")
Would so many not have fathers in the home if we stopped imprisoning so many black men? This is classic victim-blaming here. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/34 "2020-10-16T20:11:36Z")
I can see where your coming from and I dont have a good answer. All I am saying is much of the racial disparity in education and achievement can be traced back to single parent families. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/35 "2020-10-16T20:14:33Z")
I’m gonna recommend a book to you, an audiobook I’m listening to: _How to Be an Antiracist_, by Ibrim X. Kendi. It may give you a different take on what’s causing those disparities, and how “single parent families” tie into the whole shebang. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/36 "2020-10-16T21:18:16Z")
There would be less black men in prison if they did not commit crimes and they would be less likely to [commit crimes](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=167327) if they had fathers in the home. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/37 "2020-10-16T21:21:16Z")
And they would have fathers in the home if they weren’t imprisoned in such disproportionate numbers, among the highest rates in human history. [Another interesting article on single-parent homes](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/01/why-single-parent-homes-affect-children-differently/), and how to alleviate poverty. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/38 "2020-10-16T21:29:53Z")
Imprisonment affects marriages of offenders but marriage affects offending. [Marriage](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sampson/files/2006_criminology_laubwimer.pdf) reduces criminality by 35 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/39 "2020-10-16T21:58:04Z")
Okay, so these affects go both ways. Where can we interrupt the cycle you suggest? If we stop imprisoning so many black men–something we can definitely do, good lord–then if you’re right, they’ll get married more, and black kids will have more two-parent families, and outcomes will improve. As a matter of public policy, this one seems pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/40 "2020-10-16T22:28:13Z")
Who is “we”? Our culture is anti marriage and that is what needs to change. Sentencing reform may help a little on the margin, but changing the culture would be more powerful and direct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=3)