# Is the lack of black fathers the true reason for racial disparity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010 "2020-10-15T13:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/61 "2020-10-21T17:05:08Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > they are a small group with little influence No, they are neither small nor lacking in influence. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/62 "2020-10-21T22:30:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > > > they are a small group with little influence > > No, they are neither small nor lacking in influence. I completely disagree. I don’t live in the south but between my wife’s and my extended family we have perhaps 2 or 3 sincere racists out of a group of 40 people or so. They are all elderly and everyone in the family just puts up with them. Their opinions about race are NOT valued. In my part of the county at least, I believe this is a typical ratio. So maybe 5% of the population, almost all elderly? I know this isn’t the situation everywhere but I think there are far less that what is perceived. How many racists do you know out of the total group of people you know personally? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/63 "2020-10-22T03:38:16Z")
Before opiate addiction became the fashion statement it seems to be now in some circles (probably the late 1990s), I saw a TV show about heroin addiction among suburban teenagers. They went to a parents’ support group, and there was a large group of prosperous-looking white women sitting in a circle, talking about what this had done to their families. The voice-over said, “Fathers can theoretically attend, but they’ve never seen one.” THAT spoke volumes to me. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/64 "2020-10-22T03:40:23Z")
How old were the girls? In most states, beyond a certain age, there really isn’t a whole lot the courts can do regarding which parent the children live with. And really, don’t many teenagers think they would want to live with an adult who doesn’t make them go to school, lets their boy/girlfriends sleep over, buys them beer, etc.? THAT was probably a bigger factor than race. If the kids were pre-teens, that would be another story. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/65 "2020-10-22T05:47:20Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > How many racists do you know out of the total group of people you know personally? About 50% of the people I know personally are racist. Of course, none of those are my friends. Some are family. We may have very different views on what constitutes a racist. I gather as much by your use of the weasel word “sincere”. And in America, I’m only going by what I see in the news, in statistics, and my one visit there, which _was_ to Texas. But > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > maybe 5% of the population, almost all elderly is just ridiculous. Most of the American racists I see are middle-aged and younger. And [New York](https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/10/14/923695262/woman-who-called-police-on-black-bird-watcher-allegedly-made-a-second-911-call?t=1603345015548) is not the Deep South, nor are many of the other places middle-aged and younger [Karens](https://abcnews.go.com/US/bbq-becky-golfcart-gail-list-unnecessary-911-calls/story?id=58584961) weaponize the cops against PoC. And that’s not even going into the size of the Republican voting base, and what being a Republican voter right now says about one’s racism. And that’s also not going into how size doesn’t correlate with influence, given the very evident racism of the current President. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/66 "2020-10-22T06:25:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > About 50% of the people I know personally are racist. Of course, none of those are my friends. Some are family. > > We may have very different views on what constitutes a racist. I gather as much by your use of the weasel word “sincere”. And in America, I’m only going by what I see in the news, in statistics, and my one visit there, which _was_ to Texas. You live in South Africa, it’s not a huge surprise you know a disproportionate number of racists. The real point is what counts as racism and what to do about it. Some people say everyone is racist. You can’t fire everyone. So maybe some people are the sincere racists of @Dark_Sponge’s definition, and should not be in the police. And a much larger group have unexamined prejudices, or however you want to put it. Maybe the best way to deal with that is to give them objective criteria to use as far as possible, to reduce opportunity for bias. But it’s not the same thing, and it makes no sense to treat it the same. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/67 "2020-10-22T06:30:36Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You live in South Africa, it’s not a huge surprise you know a disproportionate number of racists. There’s nothing disproportionate about it. If anything, I’d say South Africa is _less_ racist than, say, the USA or, definitely, the UK, a country I am _very_ familiar with, have visited frequently, and contains a _significant_ proportion of those “people I know personally” (probably 25%) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/68 "2020-10-22T06:33:08Z")
I live in the UK and am (distantly) acquainted with 3 racists. What definition are you using exactly? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/69 "2020-10-22T06:40:25Z")
“a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.” is an adequate one. So, _everyone_ you know is just cool with Travellers? With Asian immigrants? With Eastern European migrant workers? Never made a “drunk Irishman” joke in your presence? Never said anything about “Muslims” as a group? Because that’s completely not my experience of the UK, nor [what the numbers show](https://theconversation.com/how-racist-is-britain-today-what-the-evidence-tells-us-141657). So, things may be different in the village of McGillycuddy or wherever you live, but the stats say different. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/70 "2020-10-22T07:12:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, things may be different in the village of McGillycuddy or wherever you live, but the stats say different. What’ve you got against rural inhabitants, huh? The people I know probably aren’t very representative, being mostly younger, more educated and open minded and so on. I think they’re about as unprejudiced as humans commonly manage to be, which still isn’t perfect. IMO every single person has a degree of prejudice against some group or other, it just varies how much. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/71 "2020-10-22T07:21:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, things may be different in the village of McGillycuddy or wherever you live, but the stats say different. Which stats say different? I don’t recognise your characterisation of the UK as a particularly racist place, I pretty much never hear racist attitudes experessed in public or private. The article you linked to didn’t show any comparison country to country so other than anecdote I don’t know on what basis you place the USA and UK as more racist than South Africa. Where do you think _any_ those countries sit on the world stage? This [study](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2019.00012/full) suggests this isn’t the case in at least one key metric and South Africa appears to be much worse than either the USA or the UK. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/72 "2020-10-22T07:41:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What’ve you got against rural inhabitants, huh? Do you count _[fictional](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Portland_Bill)_ as rural? > [@DemonTree](#): > > The people I know probably aren’t very representative, being mostly younger, more educated and open minded and so on. Then why did you raise them as representative of the UK, then? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Which stats say different? The stats I posted. Unless DT knows only 20 people, their 3 racists would be a significant outlier when 44% of people think some races or ethnic groups are **born** harder working than others. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t recognise your characterisation of the UK as a particularly racist place, I pretty much never hear racist attitudes experessed in public or private. I didn’t say it was _particularly_ racist. Just more so than _current_ South Africa. I’m not saying the racists in South Africa aren’t very racist. Just that proportionately, there are less of them. And that’s entirely down to demographics. Quite frankly, Whites are just more likely to be racist, and the UK has a much higher proportion of Whites. Granted, part of that is also probably because the net population flow of racists in the past 25 years or so has been from SA to UK. And whether or not you hear racist attitudes is very dependent on your own ethnicity, BTW. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This [study](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2019.00012/full) suggests this isn’t the case in at least one key metric Which metric am I supposed to be looking at, specifically? South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/73 "2020-10-22T07:54:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you count _[fictional](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Portland_Bill)_ as rural? It sounded dismissive. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The stats I posted. Unless DT knows only 20 people, their 3 racists would be a significant outlier when 44% of people think some races or ethnic groups are **born** harder working than others. I’m not talking about only 20 people, but I haven’t heard anyone say some races are born hard working. That’s pretty nutty. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Which metric am I supposed to be looking at, specifically? South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. You used prejudice against Eastern Europeans and the Irish as examples for the UK, that’s the same thing. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Whites are just more likely to be racist, and the UK has a much higher proportion of Whites. Not in my experience… > [@MrDibble](#): > > And whether or not you hear racist attitudes is very dependent on your own ethnicity, BTW. …this might explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/74 "2020-10-22T07:57:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say it was _particularly_ racist. Just more so than _current_ South Africa. You haven’t made a convinving case for that claim. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not saying the racists in South Africa aren’t very racist. Just that proportionately, there are less of them. nor that claim > [@MrDibble](#): > > Whites are just more likely to be racist nor that claim > [@MrDibble](#): > > Which metric am I supposed to be looking at, specifically? Table 2 I think puts the countries in a rough index and compares them. Neither your article nor my study is an exhaustive list of racism and prejudice but at least my does have that country by country comparison. > [@](#): > > South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. Why would that matter? Why would that get a pass? You yourself, when talking about racism in the UK, already lumped travellers, eastern european and the irish into the “racism” bucket and they are white. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/75 "2020-10-22T08:01:01Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It sounded dismissive. It’s my go-to name for a UK place that isn’t a known name like “London” or “Edinburgh” or “Cambridge” > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about only 20 people, but I haven’t heard anyone say some races are born hard working. That’s pretty nutty. Have you _asked_ them? Because that’s what the pollsters did. > [@](#): > > You used prejudice against Eastern Europeans and the Irish as examples for the UK, that’s the same thing. The perception here isn’t that African foreigners are of a different ethnicity, just foreign. It’s not the same as UK perceptions of ethnicity. It’s nationalistic, not ethnic. > [@](#): > > Not in my experience… I assume you mean the first bit. > [@](#): > > …this might explain it. Yes, it very well might. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/76 "2020-10-22T08:13:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s my go-to name for a UK place that isn’t a known name like “London” or “Edinburgh” or “Cambridge” You might wanna stop that. And no, I don’t ask my friends whether they think some races are less hard working. That would be weird. But they don’t say anything that suggests they think it, either. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The perception here isn’t that African foreigners are of a different ethnicity, just foreign. It’s not the same as UK perceptions of ethnicity. It’s nationalistic, not ethnic. What’s the difference? Why do South Africans dislike African foreigners? > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Not in my experience… > > I assume you mean the first bit. > > > [@](#): > > > > …this might explain it. > > Yes, it very well might. But you’re not going to consider that this may also apply to your own experience? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/77 "2020-10-22T08:19:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > IMO every single person has a degree of prejudice against some group or other, it just varies how much. It’s not simply a random distribution of bias, though. In societies that have a long-standing tradition especially of anti-black racism and white supremacism, there is going to be a disproportionately higher prevalence of prejudice against blacks, and a disproportionately lower prevalence of prejudice against whites. Normalizing and positive perceptions of white people, along with “othering” and negative perceptions of black people, are just part of the cultural air we breathe. Saying “oh well everybody’s always going to have some prejudice against some group or other” glosses over that big systemic difference. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Quite frankly, Whites are just more likely to be racist > [@DemonTree](#): > > Not in my experience Well duh, you’re white. We white people in traditionally racist societies go through most of our lives not having to notice anti-black racism unless somebody’s being an openly loud white supremacist about it, which most white people don’t see happening a lot. But that doesn’t mean racism isn’t to some extent baked into our attitudes and expectations, even when we consciously reject its beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/78 "2020-10-22T08:38:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not simply a random distribution of bias, though. In societies that have a long-standing tradition especially of anti-black racism and white supremacism, there is going to be a disproportionately higher prevalence of prejudice against blacks, and a disproportionately lower prevalence of prejudice against whites. In those societies, sure. It’s quite an America-centric way of looking at it, though. If anything I’d say there’s a more prejudice against Muslims amd Eastern Europeans in the UK; just look at Brexit. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well duh, you’re white. We white people in traditionally racist societies go through most of our lives not having to notice anti-black racism unless somebody’s being an openly loud white supremacist about it, which most white people don’t see happening a lot. But that doesn’t mean racism isn’t to some extent baked into our attitudes and expectations, even when we consciously reject its beliefs. That’s quite possible. But that’s what I was trying to get at, saying there’s a difference between this ‘baked in’ racism and concious racism, and they need to be dealt with differently. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/79 "2020-10-22T08:47:12Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You haven’t made a convinving case for that claim. > nor that claim > nor that claim That’s just a truism. If you don’t agree, there;s no real common ground to be had on any conversation about racism. I am no longer at home to “every group is equally racist” ideology. > [@](#): > > Table 2 I think puts the countries in a rough index and compares them. Neither your article nor my study is an exhaustive list of racism and prejudice but at least my does have that country by country comparison. Yes, but it’s conflating immigration and race prejudice, as far as I can tell. It’s not a measure of just race prejudice. South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. > [@](#): > > Why would that matter? Why would that get a pass? I didn’t say it “gets a pass”, it’s just not racism. > [@](#): > > You yourself, when talking about racism in the UK, already lumped travellers, eastern european and the irish into the “racism” bucket and they are white. Because UK perceptions of what is and isn’t race and ethnicity are different than South African ones. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/80 "2020-10-22T08:57:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You might wanna stop that. You prefer Brigadoon? > [@](#): > > And no, I don’t ask my friends whether they think some races are less hard working. That would be weird. That you think it’s weird to ask your friends questions to assess their degree of racism kind of means I’m going to discount your opinions on whether your friends might or might not be racist. > [@](#): > > But they don’t say anything that suggests they think it, either. That you’ve noticed. > [@](#): > > What’s the difference? Why do South Africans dislike African foreigners? The difference is they don’t think they’re _congenitally_ superior. And the reasons for the xenophobia are the usual bullshit - they think they’re taking jobs and are more criminal. Also, the immigrant population more than doubled in size in the last decade, so they’re suddenly a much more visible minority. > [@](#): > > But you’re not going to consider that this may also apply to your own experience? What makes you think I haven’t considered it? I and other PoC definitely see more evidence of racism than most White people do. That doesn’t mean we make up the racism. It just means most White people don’t see what’s there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=5)