# Is the lack of black fathers the true reason for racial disparity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010 "2020-10-15T13:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/101 "2020-10-22T17:47:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Depends how many times you roll. It wasn’t enough for me to be sure. What if I tell you that the main company making dice for the last 400 years has been making weighted dice that almost exclusively roll sixes? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/102 "2020-10-22T17:52:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s just a truism. If you don’t agree, there;s no real common ground to be had on any conversation about racism. It isn’t a case of disagreeing, you just haven’t made a case for a claim. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I am no longer at home to “every group is equally racist” ideology. Nor am I, some cultural, religious, ethnic or national groups are worse than others I’m sure. It cannot be any other way. > [@MrDibble](#): > > South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. Oh well, I’m sure that makes the immigrants feel so much better. > [@MrDibble](#): > > UK perceptions of what is and isn’t race and ethnicity are different than South African ones. Based on your comments here I’m not convinced you are well versed in what the “UK” thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/103 "2020-10-22T17:59:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I found it unbelievable at first, too - the numbers looked waaay too _low_ . But there they are, and I’m not going to argue with them. So you aren’t going to argue with the figures I provided in my survey I assume? You accept them as accurate? Also, “waaay too low” compared to what? to when? to which other country? There are absolutely no comparisons or conclusions to be made from the article you posted other than “sterotypical opinions of other groups exists”. Which we already knew. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/104 "2020-10-23T06:24:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Based on your comments here I’m not convinced you are well versed in what the “UK” thinks. Well, I seem to be more aligned with the data in knowing the amount of racists in the UK than an actual UK person. So are you , **Novelty\_Bobble** , saying you do _not_ think the UK has a significant population of racists? Not _sincere_ racists (whatever the fuck that means), not _other weasel word_ racists, but just a lot of White people who think their own race is superior to others, even if it’s just a vague intuition they have? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So you aren’t going to argue with the figures I provided in my survey I assume? You accept them as accurate? Sure. I just don’t think they say what you seem to think they say as regards to actual racism, vs just views on immigration. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Also, “waaay too low” compared to what? Compared to my perceptions of the UK. But I’m happy to believe the data and adjust my thinking that the UK may not be _as_ racist as I, a PoC, perceived when there (while _still_ being _very_ racist). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/105 "2020-10-23T06:25:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Oh well, I’m sure that makes the immigrants feel so much better. Did I say it should? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/106 "2020-10-23T06:25:48Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yeah, I was assuming if a South African knows a lot of racists it might well be because he knows a lot of white apartheid supporters. Next time, don’t assume. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/107 "2020-10-23T06:34:22Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So is it racist to notice that certain types of people are more commonly found doing certain types of jobs? It’s racist to reduce an entire ethnicity to “people who do X jobs”, as in the joke I saw. > [@](#): > > And WTF is ‘Whiteness’? I’m sorry, are you not simultaneously participating in the Critical Race Theory thread? What the fuck are you doing in it without knowing one of the core tenets of the theory? Or was that just a completely disingenuous question? > [@](#): > > And a culture of fear? Any place where people are too afraid to talk about something as essential as racism with their own friends is a culture of fear. > [@](#): > > I remember the ‘breaking point’ posters, and I did think those were racist at the time. One of the biggest political issues of your life, one side of the issue puts out a poster like that, you **acknowledge that it’s racist** , _that side wins the issue_, and yet you’re still standing there telling me the UK has very little racism? Are you serious with this? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/108 "2020-10-23T09:10:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s racist to reduce an entire ethnicity to “people who do X jobs”, as in the joke I saw. What actually was this joke? Seems pointless to talk about it based off your vague memory. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m sorry, are you not simultaneously participating in the Critical Race Theory thread? What the fuck are you doing in it without knowing one of the core tenets of the theory? Or was that just a completely disingenuous question? You mean the “What is Critical Race Theory?” thread. I originally clicked on it because I was hoping to find out what Critical Race Theory is. And I still don’t have a good idea. So yes it’s a serious question. WTF is Whiteness as something that can hold an opinion on anything? > [@MrDibble](#): > > One of the biggest political issues of your life, one side of the issue puts out a poster like that, you **acknowledge that it’s racist** , _that side wins the issue_ , and yet you’re still standing there telling me the UK has very little racism? I know there are racist people in the UK. I would have said it was mostly poor people and older people, who have little power. The Brexit referendum was a rare chance to have a say for many poorer people, and racism was certainly not the only factor driving it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the elite just hide it better. And I don’t think racism is technically the correct term for objecting to Muslim immigrants specifically, but it’s all related. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/109 "2020-10-23T09:57:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What actually was this joke? Seems pointless to talk about it based off your vague memory. A vague memory is all I have from something that happened 12-15 years ago - it was someone’s standup set, and they said something about a Polish friend and “actually, I mean the gardener” and there was much laughter. BUT like I said, completely besides the fucking point - you think miniscule dissection of one half-remembered joke is going to distract from the larger point _you already illustrated yourself_, of casual stereotyping of Eastern Europeans as mainly labourers? A **racist** stereotype so well-worn it has its own damn [wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_plumber)? \< waits for the complaints of “But that article doesn’t mention gardeners” and also “Well, _actually_, plumbing is a skilled trade…” as if lazy stereotypers cared about accuracy \> > [@DemonTree](#): > > You mean the “What is Critical Race Theory?” thread. I originally clicked on it because I was hoping to find out what Critical Race Theory is. And I still don’t have a good idea. Are you just expecting to get spoon-fed the answers, without doing the least bit of research yourself? But still feel like you can tell PoCs what is and isn’t racism? > [@DemonTree](#): > > WTF is Whiteness as something that can hold an opinion on anything? Firstly - _serious_ questions don’t begin with “What the fuck”, mate. Secondly - here, have a read: [Whiteness Studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies) Thirdly - “Whiteness’ opinion” is a _metaphor_, which fully parsed out would be “The opinions of those members of species _Homo sapiens_ who partake as positive beneficiaries in that social system known as white privilege.” > [@DemonTree](#): > > I know there are racist people in the UK. I would have said it was mostly poor people and older people, who have little power. Leaving aside the classist and ageist aspects of that statement - which age demographic decided Brexit, again? > [@](#): > > The Brexit referendum was a rare chance to have a say for many poorer people, and racism was certainly not the only factor driving it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the elite just hide it better. You think, say, Prince Philip is “hiding it better”? > [@](#): > > And I don’t think racism is technically the correct term for objecting to Muslim immigrants specifically Well, you think wrong. It is. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/110 "2020-10-23T10:45:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, I seem to be more aligned with the data in knowing the amount of racists in the UK than an actual UK person. I guess I’m just confused over the point you are trying to make. You cite an article that quotes some figures about racist attitudes that some people have. I have not challenged those figures and have absolutely no doubt that to some degree, racist and prejudiced attitudes of all types exist. Just as they do in all countries in the world. (let’s set aside for a moment that there is no other information given in that article as to the direction of that prejudice nor the prevalence of ethnicities doing the discrimination, holding the stereotypical views or enacting the prejudicial activities) You seem to be drawing conclusions from that article and your personal experience that the UK is worse than South Africa or USA, and seemed to be implying that the UK was pretty bad overall. I am not convinced by the evidence you have put forward that that is indeed the case. I have provided another cite (literally the first one that came up) that gives some global context with regards to how people treat and welcome immigrants of various ethnicities. Not a perfect survey but certainly it is relevant for some given value of “racism” or at least “prejudiced attitudes” [Here’s another one](https://www.indexmundi.com/surveys/results/8), again literally the first of the search pile for “Global Racism Survey”. Note who is at the top and then note where the USA and UK stand. [Here’s another](https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/) So…I don’t know where we go from here. If you think I’m claiming the UK is perfect and free from prejudice of all types then you have sorely misunderstood me. It exists, it is pernicious and is being tackled. The country is in a different place from, say, the days of my childhood. [It is getting better and better](https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/attitudes-race-and-inequality-great-britain), certainly less racist and prejudiced than previous decades. Still things to do? of course. Same for every country. However, do I think it is at a fairly low level compared to other countries? Yes, and my data seems to bear me out (as does my own anecdotal experience). You think otherwise, fine. Convince me and show your working. > [@MrDibble](#): > > So are you , **Novelty\_Bobble** , saying you do _not_ think the UK has a significant population of racists? Not _sincere_ racists (whatever the fuck that means), not _other weasel word_ racists, but just a lot of White people who think their own race is superior to others, even if it’s just a vague intuition they have? No, I’m not saying that. But I suspect that the concept of racial superiority is not confined only to white people either and is likely present in _significant_ proportions for other ethnicities and cultures. Humans being humans and all that (and BTW the article you cite gives no breakdown of the figures in terms of demographics or ethnicity, not that I can find anyway) FWIW by far the most blatant, egregious and memorable examples of racism I’ve encountered have been anti-Semitism from black and middle-eastern colleagues and breathtaking religious bigotry by Hindus. High-up business leaders as well. Amazing what people will own up to when their tongues are loosened by expense account booze. In any case the concept of “significant” is pretty malleable and takes us back to your initial point that I pushed back against. “Significant” in comparison to which other country? which other time? My impression of the UK is that it isn’t very racist in global terms and is generally getting better and better with plenty still to do. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/111 "2020-10-23T10:53:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And I don’t think racism is technically the correct term for objecting to Muslim immigrants specifically > > Well, you think wrong. It is. This is just bizarre, weren’t you just saying the exact opposite when I presented a cite on attitudes to immigration? Weren’t you suggesting that it is not, in fact, “racism”. Yes, In fact you said in response to table 2. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, but it’s conflating immigration and race prejudice, as far as I can tell. It’s not a measure of just race prejudice. > South African prejudice against immigrants is significant, but it’s also largely Black-on-Black. and when I challenged you on that and asked why it got a pass in South Africa you said > [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say it “gets a pass”, it’s just not racism. So…is objection to immigration of certain ethnicities racism or not? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/112 "2020-10-23T11:54:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > ou seem to be drawing conclusions from that article and your personal experience that the UK is worse than South Africa or USA Again, just like I said to **DemonTree** - no, read what I actually wrote, this is only half-right. And no, I was not posting that cite to make numerical comparisons between the UK and SA, _only_ to point out to **DemonTree** that their experience that vey few people in the UK are racist was an outlier, and didn’t match the general state. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > [Here’s another one](https://www.indexmundi.com/surveys/results/8), again literally the first of the search pile for “Global Racism Survey”. Note who is at the top and then note where the USA and UK stand. **Note the _actual_ question** , and then have a good, hard think why _in South Africa_, the **reason** for such a high percentage answer to “How big of a problem is racial discrimination in the country where you live?” is NOT “because we’re all a bunch of racists”, but rather a one-word answer, starts with “A”, tip of my tongue… Same-same for your second survey - “61.8% of people said they had witnessed or experienced some form of racism.” What a fucking surprise! > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So…I don’t know where we go from here. Possibly some better surveys, eh? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > do I think it is at a fairly low level compared to other countries? Yes, and my data seems to bear me out (as does my own anecdotal experience). No, your biased reading of surveys bears this out. What, exactly, is your anecdotal experience of South Africa? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I suspect that the concept of racial superiority is not confined only to white people either and is likely present in _significant_ proportions for other ethnicities and cultures. No doubt. Besides the point - the question wasn’t “Are White people more racist than every other group?”. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This is just bizarre, weren’t you just saying the exact opposite when I presented a cite on attitudes to immigration? Did I? I don’t believe I mentioned Muslims at all. Let’s not kid ourselves, here - British objection to Muslim immigration goes hand-in-hand with the Brownness of those same Muslims. The objection to Muslims is an objection to Brownness. Anyone who says different is bullshitting. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > when I challenged you on that and asked why it got a pass in South Africa you said > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > I didn’t say it “gets a pass”, it’s just not racism. > > So…is objection to immigration of certain ethnicities racism or not? Yes. But South African xenophobic objection is not primarily or largely objection to other ethnicities. Hell, some of the “foreigners” from the immediate neighbouring countries are from the same tribes as the South Africans objecting to them. Like I said, different perceptions of ethnicity mean that survey is not saying what you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/113 "2020-10-23T13:08:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Again, just like I said to **DemonTree** - no, read what I actually wrote, this is only half-right. OK, do you think the UK is a more racist country than the USA or South Africa. If that was not a claim you were making we can end the diversion right there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/114 "2020-10-23T13:13:32Z")
I think the UK’s more racist than South Africa. I also think the USA is more racist than South Africa. I have no firm opinion on whether the USA or the UK is the more racist of the two, not having spent anywhere near as much time in the USA as I have in the UK, or in as much of it (admittedly, only in England and Wales though. So if Scotland is some world-beating kind of bastion of racial harmony, do tell), but my suspicion is the USA is more racist. There, I answered your question. Care to answer mine? > [@MrDibble](#): > > What, exactly, is your anecdotal experience of South Africa? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/115 "2020-10-23T13:19:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think the UK’s more racist than South Africa OK, then if you want to back that up with data for comparison I’d be happy to take a look. Until then it is anecdote and assertion. > [@MrDibble](#): > > What, exactly, is your anecdotal experience of South Africa? None, and if I had any it would and should be overridden by better data and surveys. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/116 "2020-10-23T13:31:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, then if you want to back that up with data for comparison I’d be happy to take a look. Until then it is anecdote and assertion. Whiteness calls it “anecdote and assertion”, we call it naming our own reality. You’ve already tried “data” and I already pointed out how flawed it was in context. But are you going to adjust your thinking? Somehow, I doubt it. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > What, exactly, is your anecdotal experience of South Africa? > > None Well, then your opinion is irrelevant to me. I’ve experienced _both_, and as a PoC. You’ve experienced _one_. And you think some numbers in obviously flawed surveys (where you have thus far skipped merrily past addressing the flaws pointed out, I’ll note) trump that lack of experience? Naah, I don’t think so. Homey don’t play that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/117 "2020-10-23T14:06:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whiteness calls it “anecdote and assertion”, we call it naming our own reality. Feel free to call it what you want. Doesn’t change the fact that if you really want to know what is going on, at some point you have to deal with the facts as best you can describe them. Anecdote and assertion won’t cut it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You’ve already tried “data” and I already pointed out how flawed it was in context. But are you going to adjust your thinking? Somehow, I doubt it. Flawed they may be (as all studies are) but that does not make them useless. My thinking is constantly under review on pretty much everything. And let’s remember that I’m not the one making a claim here. You stated that the UK is more racist than South Africa, I said you hadn’t made your case and you still haven’t. You’ve not tried _any_ data _at all_. Your thinking is blissfully untroubled by anything approaching an empirical fact and you dismiss what data _is_ presented that may be evidence against your claim. From what I can see, against your claim is data plus anecdote (that I don’t put any weight on). For your claim you have anecdote (that I don’t put any weight on) and assertion (which is worthless) You make the claim, you bring the data, give your claim some weight if you can. > [@MrDibble](#): > > you have thus far skipped merrily past addressing the flaws pointed out, I’ll note Even if you dismiss all the surveys and data I’ve cited you as fatally flawed and worthless, all you are left with is nothing but anecdote and assertion, which does not a sound argument make. _You_ think the UK is more racist that South Africa. That’s where your argument starts and ends. An unsupported opinion. Do you any data that backs up your claim? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/118 "2020-10-23T14:19:49Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Doesn’t change the fact that if you really want to know what is going on, at some point you have to deal with the facts as best you can describe them. Funny. I would think if you wanted to know “what was going on” in terms of racism, “at some point” you’d have to listen to the experiences of the people who experience racism. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Flawed they may be (as all studies are) but that does not make them useless. Yes, it very much does. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I said you hadn’t made your case I don’t care about _your_ opinion on it. I’ve made my case to my satisfaction. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You’ve not tried _any_ data _at all_ . There _is_ no data on “comparative racism” that isn’t critically flawed like your examples. At least none that I could find. The studies have not been done. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > against your claim is data plus anecdote _What_ anecdote? All I’ve seen is admission that people objecting to the comparison have no actual basis on which to base that objection, and _especially_ no experience of one side of the comparison. There’s no “anecdote” there. The data, as repeatedly pointed out, is useless garbage. And I don’t care what you do or don’t give weight to. _All_ social experience is narrative, you can try and drown out true stories with the obviously massaged stats you prefer, but that’s not going to work forever. And _continued_ failure to address the actual flaws in your piss-poor “surveys”, duly noted. Merely noting that they “may be flawed” (nice weasel-word, that “may”) is not addressing them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/119 "2020-10-23T14:38:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > Flawed they may be (as all studies are) but that does not make them useless. > > Yes, it very much does. All studies are flawed, anything based on data collection is flawed, anything devised or conceived of by the human intellect is flawed. just like all scientific models are wrong but some are useful. You are picking up on some flaws and discounting everything that is said as a result. OK, good luck with that. But at the same time you are holding up _anecdote_ as fact. Anecdote that is remembered, filtered and reported by fallible and partial human beings. That is the bedrock on which you are basing your (still) unsupported claim. I don’t find it convincing. There was a thread about the death of James Randi, your approach is so, so reminiscent of myriad diviners, astrologers and mediums who rely on anecdote and cannot be swayed no matter evidence is put before them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/120 "2020-10-23T15:12:39Z")
Data is nothing without purpose. Since this data is presented as being about relative racism, yet is so very obviously flawed in assessing that, it is completely useless for purpose. That you think my dismissing _bad_ data makes me akin to flim-flam artists is laughable. It makes me a _better_ scientist and skeptic than someone who thinks those surveys are meaningful. And anecdotes _are_ facts. And hence data. And your much-prized survey data is _also_ collected, filtered, and oh so very much _massaged_ by “fallible and partial human beings”. So yeah, until the robots take over, anecdote in social fields very much is data. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=7)