# Is the lack of black fathers the true reason for racial disparity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010 "2020-10-15T13:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/121 "2020-10-23T15:33:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That you think my dismissing _bad_ data makes me akin to flim-flam artists is laughable. It makes me a _better_ scientist and skeptic than someone who thinks those surveys are meaningful. That’s not the part that makes you unscientific, Your unwillingness to put forward any data of your own to back up your claim does that. Do you have any? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/122 "2020-10-23T15:35:48Z")
I’ve provided data, your refusal to see it as data is not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/123 "2020-10-23T15:49:04Z")
where have you provided it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/124 "2020-10-23T15:50:27Z")
Like I said, your refusal to see anecdote as data, not my problem ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/125 "2020-10-23T15:56:32Z")
There’s an epistemological question at work here: is a shitty set of data better than personal experience? People who think shitty data is superior are, in my opinion, deeply superstitious in this regard. There’s a near-worship of data among people who lack a clear understanding of its value, who think the mere act of assigning numbers to something imbues it with a supernatural value. I cannot tell you how many times as an educator I’ve pointed out that a particular standardized assessment is flawed, and I’m told, “Yeah, but it’s just one data point, and you should always use several data points to make a decision.” I grit my teeth and do not say “YEAH BUT I’M NOT USING THIS ONE BECAUSE IT’S A **FLAWED** DATA POINT MOTHERFUCKER!” Good, coherent, accurate, well-analyzed data is generally a superior source of information than personal experience. But personal experience is a very powerful source of information, and it’s superior to flawed data. Often a random coin flip would be better than flawed data, because at least people realize that the coin flip is meaningless. If someone had done a well-organized, statistically valid study of rates of racism in various countries, I’d trust that over **MrDibble’s** experience. But since nobody has done that, I’m sure as shit not trusting a scattershot shitty approach to data over his experience. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/126 "2020-10-23T17:54:58Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > How old were the girls? In most states, beyond a certain age, there really isn’t a whole lot the courts can do regarding which parent the children live with. The oldest of the three girls was first detained in a battery case in 2013, when she was 13 and her sisters were 12 and 9. In Illinois, children 14 and older can choose which parent to live with. Over the next several years they were all detained repeatedly for charges ranging from shoplifting to vehicle theft to aggravated battery, and they all seemed to have alcohol and substance use issues, too. They tended to go to school and not get in much trouble when they were staying with their black father, but whenever their white mother was out of jail, they would end up back with her. I looked up the arrest records for both parents. From 2005 through 2017, the mother was repeatedly arrested for felony theft, burglary, methamphetamine possession, and methamphetamine manufacturing. From 1993 through 2015, the father had a jaywalking ticket, two parking tickets, a ticket for no lights on a bicycle, had to pay fines a couple of times for fighting, and his last arrest was an assault case for which he served 30 days in county jail. (In Illinois, assault is putting someone in fear of bodily harm, like getting in their face and threatening them. If you physically attack someone, that’s battery.) The father was generally a pleasant guy to deal with, while the mother was a pain in the butt. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/127 "2020-10-23T18:52:53Z")
Flawed isn’t the same as totally useless. Objecting to neighbours of another race is a real measure of racism, although it relies on respondents telling the truth. As for personal experience, it depends how much you trust the person giving their experience, and how typical they are. No one posting on this site is likely to be particularly typical. If you reject the standardised assessment what were you using instead? Your own judgement of the students? That’s even more likely to be flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/128 "2020-10-23T21:47:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like I said, your refusal to see anecdote as data, not my problem Not a problem for me at all. Your claim simply remains unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/129 "2020-10-23T21:51:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good, coherent, accurate, well-analyzed data is generally a superior source of information than personal experience. But personal experience is a very powerful source of information, It certainly can be, but to raise it to that level there needs to plenty of it and it needs to be collected and processed with some degree of rigour. I’ve seen none of that from MrDibble. It remains at the level of personal opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/130 "2020-10-23T22:16:49Z")
I disagree. If I tell you that (for example) my hometown lacks a good Ethiopian restaurant, you are likely to take me at my word. If I tell you that alcoholism runs in my family, are you going to gainsay me because I didn’t collect evidence of this with rigor? People use personal experience all the time to communicate information. Claiming it has to be collected and processed before it’s powerful is not true. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/131 "2020-10-23T22:32:58Z")
Telling us about something you’ve personally experienced is a long way from generalising to a whole country. And even then it depends how reliable you are and how important the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/132 "2020-10-24T00:19:00Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If you reject the standardised assessment what were you using instead? Your own judgement of the students? That’s even more likely to be flawed. I profoundly disagree. My judgment of students is based off of my experience working with them for dozens, or hundreds, of hours. I trust my judgment moderately, and I trust the judgment of any decent teacher moderately, when it comes to knowing about their students’ academic strengths and struggles. This is similar to how I trust the judgment of bakers, gardeners, electricians, and radio personalities in their fields. If a baker has a top-of-the-line thermometer/hygrometer setup that she can use to evaluate when her sourdough loaf is perfectly baked, spiffy keen, that’s great, yay data. But if her thermometer is broken, don’t tell me that it’s still better than her eye/nose/finger at knowing when the bread is done. Her professional experience counts for a lot. ---
**Author:** ![JBlackstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jblackstone/32/5256_2.png) [@JBlackstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBlackstone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/133 "2020-10-24T02:49:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If someone had done a well-organized, statistically valid study of rates of racism in various countries, I’d trust that over **MrDibble’s** experience. But since nobody has done that, I’m sure as shit not trusting a scattershot shitty approach to data over his experience. What makes you think he’s a credible witness? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/134 "2020-10-24T03:20:21Z")
> [@JBlackstone](#): > > What makes you think he’s a credible witness? Hi, JBlackstone, and welcome to the boards! I’ve known MrDibble through the boards for many years, unlike you, and have built up some trust in him. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/135 "2020-10-24T08:24:13Z")
Back when I was at school I remember a few occasions when teachers were very surprised by my exam results. Luckily for me they did not decide to override my A with their own judgement. Teachers are dealing with people and are therefore subject to all the usual biases. What is so wrong with the standard assessment that you think it is not just flawed but totally worthless? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/136 "2020-10-24T08:34:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree. If you make a claim that alcoholism runs in your family I have no reason to doubt it and wouldn’t do so. Just like I haven’t doubted Dibble’s personal opinion. If you go further and make a claim that alcoholism is far more prevalent in your country, or among certain groups etc. than in other countries or groups then your own, personal opinion does _nothing_ to support that. You would need data to back that up. That can be through the collection of multiple anecdotal reports but that needs to be done with care to ensure that you are doing it in an unbiased way, asking the right sample of people, asking the right questions etc. That’s where the real power comes from. Weaker protocol likely means weaker data. In effect that is what “polling” does. It collects anecdotal data and personal opinion in a controlled way. I would certainly take such careful polling seriously and certainly over a single persons limited experience. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/137 "2020-10-24T12:02:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > it depends how reliable you are The reliability of PoCs on whether something is or isn’t racist is _infinitely_ higher than that of those who benefit from White privilege. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/138 "2020-10-24T12:36:19Z")
If I remember correctly, @MrDibble lives in South Africa and @Novelty_Bobble lives in Australia. I _think_ they’re both natives of their respective countries but I’m not sure. I suspect most posters think the thread has an implicit “… in the USA” tacked onto it. I also suspect the three wildly different environments are contributing to folks talking past one another a bunch. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/139 "2020-10-24T12:50:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I also suspect the three wildly different environments are contributing to folks talking past one another a bunch. I think different _ethnic_ backgrounds play a much bigger role in why I’m being talked down to (not past - FFS, I am a trained scientist, but I’m being compared to fucking mediums for citing my own damn experiences). And I _think_ **N\_B** is in the UK, not Australia. ---
**Author:** ![JBlackstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jblackstone/32/5256_2.png) [@JBlackstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBlackstone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010/140 "2020-10-24T15:10:52Z")
I did a bit of googling and found something interesting. If we look at attitudes to immigrants and if we say that the more unpopular immigrants are in a country the more racist it is then South Africa is more racist than the UK. [This 2019 Pew poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/03/in-south-africa-racial-divisions-and-pessimism-over-democracy-loom-over-elections/) says 62% of South Africans think immigrants are a burden, take jobs and commit more crime and increased risk of terrorism [This ipsos poll](https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/britons-are-more-positive-negative-about-immigrations-impact-britain) what’s also from 2019 says 31% of british people think immigration is bad, 45% think its good and the rest aren’t sure. Pew and Ipsos are both good polling companies with good reputations. I trust them over the experience of any single individual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lack-of-black-fathers-the-true-reason-for-racial-disparity/923010.md?page=8)