# Is the language becoming debased? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203 "2009-02-17T00:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/41 "2009-02-17T17:38:26Z")
Debased? Fuck no! Duh! ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/42 "2009-02-17T18:01:59Z")
This will likely be a minority opinion, but I think that the vulgar neologisms and multisylabic insults common in the pit (and elsewhere) are secondary to the trend toward actual hatred, loathing, contempt, disgust and true misanthropy. It is no longer sufficient to simply insult someone or to use an obscene put down; it has become necessary to cause actual psychological damage and to follow it up with a comment that one needs a thicker skin if there is any complaint. I sense a real investment of emotional and intellective faculties in some of the nastiness that is wielded against people for doing nothing more than questioning someone’s deeply held beliefs on the subject of: +1 QTF. And God almighty help you if you are wrong about some more or less objective fact. Misusing punctuation obviates the rule barring threats of death and violence — if that rule weren’t in place we’d see posters and their families routinely threatend with horrendous torture, sodomy and slow death for quoting the OP in its entirety in the second post. Twatwaffle is an attempt at a humorous barb, even when it is used as an insult, the term is facetious. The need to attack a person in a way that causes them real distress — often over meaningless differences in values or positions — is far more disturbing to me than whether or not the seven words you can’t say on TV need ‘hole’ or ‘suck’ attached to retain their sting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/43 "2009-02-17T18:13:58Z")
Language is always becoming debased. I was reading a book last year where the author traced the evolution of a phrase. It would start out as an original and literal means of expressing something emphatically. Its utility for doing this would lead to it becoming common in usage. As people became familiar with the phrase, it would no longer be necessary to use the whole phrase and it would become shortened down so that a word or two would invoke the meaning of the phrase. And as it became common, it would lose its ability to make its point in an emphatic manner. So a new phrase would be created. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/44 "2009-02-17T18:37:25Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > This will likely be a minority opinion, but I think that the vulgar neologisms and multisylabic insults common in the pit (and elsewhere) are secondary to the trend toward actual hatred, loathing, contempt, disgust and true misanthropy. > > It is no longer sufficient to simply insult someone or to use an obscene put down; it has become necessary to cause actual psychological damage and to follow it up with a comment that one needs a thicker skin if there is any complaint. > > I sense a real investment of emotional and intellective faculties in some of the nastiness that is wielded against people for doing nothing more than questioning someone’s deeply held beliefs on the subject of: +1 QTF. > > And God almighty help you if you are wrong about some more or less objective fact. Misusing punctuation obviates the rule barring threats of death and violence — if that rule weren’t in place we’d see posters and their families routinely threatend with horrendous torture, sodomy and slow death for quoting the OP in its entirety in the second post. > > Twatwaffle is an attempt at a humorous barb, even when it is used as an insult, the term is facetious. The need to attack a person in a way that causes them real distress — often over meaningless differences in values or positions — is far more disturbing to me than whether or not the seven words you can’t say on TV need ‘hole’ or ‘suck’ attached to retain their sting. Your entire post sums up my sense that it really comes down to electronic, non-personal (in the sense of not being in each other’s presence) communication removing the need for self-censure and good graces. The vitriol spewed in the Pit, for example, or in comments under video game reviews (always a source of hilarity) or under Youtube clips I believe is only so vehement because the person doing the spewing does not have to worry about the other person in any real way. It feels distanced from reality and less meaningful than if you were to speak that way directly to someone’s face. This may well bleed in to our regular interpersonal relations with real human beings, and may have caused an increase in profanity, but ultimately I think we will always be more cautious in our tone and phrasing when face-to-face with someone than when operating online. Though I agree that the use of profanity is likely no greater now than it has been historically, we just tend to see more of the higher class from history and interact with the more common masses presently. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/45 "2009-02-17T19:25:36Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Some poeple, however, keep trying to impose Latin into English. Data perfectly fits the “vague amount” words pattern, which are normally singular in English. Seconded. It’s fiddly to use data in the plural sense, since we almost always mean “some” data, not a specific quantity (what is 71 data?), and datum is such a rarely used word. * * * To the rest of the OP, my feelings are similar to many of the other posters: language is evolving and though some words don’t have the shock value they used to, that’s always been true. I mean, take a pretty tame word like “idiot”. It originally meant something akin to “super-retard”: > [@dictionary.com](#): > > **Idiot** > A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. However, it does seem that some people lazily use expletives all over their speech because they can’t think of more descriptive words. And obviously, that shit’s fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/46 "2009-02-17T19:35:06Z")
Why only profanity? Why not a phrase like “shut up,” which is currently used by the Younger Set as a synonym for “wow, that’s amazing”? Telling someone to shut up, aka stop talking, is at best blunt, and in most situations would be considered rude. But if one twenty-something says to another, I got front-row seats for Justin Timberlake, and the other says, Shut up, that’s not rude at all. 'Sdeath, it’s enough to give a fellow the vapors. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/47 "2009-02-17T19:38:40Z")
The word “data” is very like the word “agenda” – both Latin participles used as plural nouns, meaning literally “things given” and “things to do”, respectively. But in English “agenda” is always singular, for a list of things to do, and has its own plural “agendas” – unless you are Sir Humphrey Appleby in “Yes Prime Minister”, for whom a one-item agenda was an “agendum”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/48 "2009-02-17T21:35:51Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Well I’m struggling with what the hell is going on with the crude and rude language these days. > > As a teenager we never used words like “fuck” in front of adults, though we used it commonly enough amongst ourselves. The exception would be in the company of older males of rough living with no females present. > > Teenagers would tell each other to “fuck off”, but as we settled into our twenties,(1970s) we seemed to mature beyond that. Those who continued to use the word were regarded with mild contempt for lack of vocabulary and self control. Today, in the real life circles I travel in I rarely hear the word or the expression “fuck off”. > > So you can imagine my surprise when I was introduced to the pit where intelligent and educated people where expressing themselves in the most vile manner possible. > > I have done so my self, though not often, yet I continue to wonder if many of the pitizens actually talk like they post in real life and if they get so really pissed off so frequently. You’re missing the fun of the pit. It’s where you let that little horrid hatefilled imp out, the one you normally keep controlled. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/49 "2009-02-17T21:42:35Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Why only profanity? Why not a phrase like “shut up,” which is currently used by the Younger Set as a synonym for “wow, that’s amazing”? Telling someone to shut up, aka stop talking, is at best blunt, and in most situations would be considered rude. But if one twenty-something says to another, I got front-row seats for Justin Timberlake, and the other says, Shut up, that’s not rude at all. > > 'Sdeath, it’s enough to give a fellow the vapors. > > Or not. I think shut up is being used as playful irony there. In that context Justin Timberlake tickets sound hard to come by.\* So the second person is expressing their interest by telling them not to talk about it. \*you can shut up for real if you expect me to know anything that. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/50 "2009-02-17T21:57:02Z")
To me, people that rely on profanity and vulgarity to express themselves come across similar to kids on a playground yelling “I know you are, but what am I” and “I’m rubber, you’re glue. What bounces of me, sticks on you.” Profanity, especially fuck, has because a cop out. If I use it, I don’t have to think any farther, I’ve won the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/51 "2009-02-17T22:11:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Now the situation has been turned on its head. Rich people, political and intellectual elites, and the major media use profanity nonstop and think that it makes them better than everyone else. Dirty words supposedly prove that one is genuine, while polite language supposedly indicates a phony or a loser. Nonsense. Can you point to a single example in which someone’s use of polite language indicates that they’re phony or a loser? I submit that such instances are vanishingly rare, if they exist at all. What may be confusing you is that folks sometimes use an inappropriate register. A comedic trope–one that I believe goes back to Shakespeare (though I’m not enough of a scholar to be able to think of an example)–involves an upper-society dandy speaking in upper-society language when encountering lower-society people, and the lower-society people feeling a combination of humiliation, anger, amusement, and contempt for the dandy. They believe the use of high-society language indicates the speaker’s condescension toward them, and they respond forcefully. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/52 "2009-02-19T14:25:06Z")
Thanks for the variety of input. Looks like we’ve got two different (although related) topics wound together: (1) purity of the language (e.g., data, or “it’s me” or similar) (2) profanity becoming more common I’ve actually have an epiphany on purity of the language. I used to be a stickler for “proper” English but I recently heard a lecture by a linguist, asserting that many of these rules (such as cases of nouns) derive from Latin and are silly in English. He specifically pointed out that “it’s me” is much more natural, in line with other Romance languages, than the proper “it’s I.” The comment about “shut up” is interesting. Clearly, language does change, and we do find (and have over past centuries) words/phrases taking on meanings opposite their original meaning. However, that happens in the spoken language: change happens quickly. In the written language, when you see “shut up” or “fuck off,” devoid of tone, body language, and context… how do you know which meaning to take? ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/53 "2009-02-19T15:23:47Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > Off hand, I can’t think of a word used as a swear word - as opposed to socially unacceptable words such as nigger - that would cause more offense in the UK too. Possibly, I didn’t say it wasn’t. I’d say the only enormously offensive words in the UK/former colonies are the ethnic slurs. The rest are pretty common, including cunt. ETA: Well CK, you could just ask. Presumably if they intended to insult you they will happily tell you so. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/54 "2009-02-19T15:56:02Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > Possibly, I didn’t say it wasn’t. Maybe I have misunderstood this? > [@](#): > > _Cunt has only become enormously offensive in the USA._ > [@](#): > > _I’d say the only enormously offensive words in the UK/former colonies are the ethnic slurs. The rest are pretty common, including cunt_. IMO, they’re equally offensive but in different ways. If you want to swear at someone, you’d say ‘cunt’. If you wanted to denigrate a person of colour, you’d call him a ‘nigger’. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/55 "2009-02-19T16:05:13Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The comment about “shut up” is interesting. Clearly, language does change, and we do find (and have over past centuries) words/phrases taking on meanings opposite their original meaning. However, that happens in the spoken language: change happens quickly. In the written language, when you see “shut up” or “fuck off,” devoid of tone, body language, and context… how do you know which meaning to take? This is why, and I know this is a minority opinion, I like and use smilies on message boards and in chat. 😉 Message boards and chat aren’t spoken language, certainly, but they’re not quite formal written language, either. Consider the time one puts into writing, proofing, rewriting, and re-rewriting an article for publication, a research paper for school or an important letter to your best client. Compare that to the time and effort one puts into writing a message board post. I don’t know about you, but even my most arduously pondered and rewritten message board post receives a fraction of the attention my last lab report did. Most of them receive fewer rewrites than my average thank you card. Smilies provide, for those who know how to decode them, the internet written equivalent of “tone, body language and context,” for this new hybrid form of language. Those who rail against them might as well rail against commas or exclamation points - neither of which exist in spoken communication and had to be invented to make phrasing and intonation clear when we started writing. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/56 "2009-02-19T17:05:27Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The comment about “shut up” is interesting. .. In the written language, when you see “shut up” or “fuck off,” devoid of tone, body language, and context… how do you know which meaning to take? I think it’s all part of the game. If you take offense where none was meant, most posters will apologize. If the slight was intentional and you complain you redouble the burn because you are now a paranoid pantywaist and can’t piss with the big boys. Fuck off has not suddenly become a pleasant alternative to, “You don’t say.” It’s as much of a nasty, offensive, vulgar pejorative as ever. If you know someone well enough to say it with a wink, that provides the context. Otherwise, it means what it looks like it means and its only mild in the context of the effrontery race that a wave of new technology has spawned. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/57 "2009-02-20T00:13:52Z")
I agree. Our young have taken “shut up” as a way of saying “you’re kidding me, right?” I hear it all the time at work. Sounds like a whole new direction for this thread, **C K**! 🙂 Quasi ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/58 "2009-02-20T15:04:29Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > (But of course there’s things I just love to death, like “embiggen” - cracks me up.) It’s a perfectly cromulent word. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/59 "2009-02-20T15:43:14Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > I’ve actually have an epiphany on purity of the language. I used to be a stickler for “proper” English but I recently heard a lecture by a linguist, asserting that many of these rules (such as cases of nouns) derive from Latin and are silly in English. He specifically pointed out that “it’s me” is much more natural, in line with other Romance languages, than the proper “it’s I.” It escapes me how someone could have over eleven thousand posts on this board and not have already been familiar with that argument. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203/60 "2009-02-22T07:14:39Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > In Germany, the word “Scheisse” is very commonplace. > > The phrase “Ich habe Scheisse gebaut” (meaning **not** “I built shit”, but “I made a mess of things”, is very common. > > What is **not** acceptable, is “Ich muss scheissen” (“I have to shit”). > > There may be others as well which have come into usage there, but that’s the the one word I can think of right now. > > To the question: “Have “fuck” and “shit” lost their sting as well?”, it’s my opinion that if they have we may need to resort to “stilted cursing” such as the Python-esque “Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.” > > The fact that “fuck” and “shit” are such harsh, sybillant words and can therefore be used as exclamations makes me believe that it will be a long time before we incorporate them into “polite” conversation. Right, whereas “ship”, “fish”, “foot”, and a million other words aren’t short and sibilant at all. English is a highly sibilant language anyway. If you happen to hear a conversation just beyond comfortable earshot and can manage to tune out the words, all you’re left with is the sibilants. But I did get the same impression regarding “Scheisse” when I was in Germany. After hearing elderly ladies on the bus using the in such contexts as you describe, I came to the conclusion that, when so used, it was no more crude than “dadgummit”. Speaking of such “minced oaths” like “tarnation” and “goldangit”, it’s always interesting to see them used in real, furious anger or frustrated exasperation by a movie or TV character who just doesn’t swear. In the mainstream culture, such words normally seem to be a joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-language-becoming-debased/486203.md?page=4)