# Is the Lebanese government serious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940 "2006-07-17T23:45:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/21 "2006-07-18T16:22:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Lebanon can’t just wash theri hands of the matter without even trying, not when the Lebanese army outnumbers Hizballah 10 to 1. At least let us hear some indication that they _want_ to disarm Hizballah - they haven’t even said that. Given your location, I assume you must be aware that Hezbollah is _part of_ the Lebanese government. You speak, though, as if you are not aware of this. Your remarks also suggest that you’re thinking of the Lebanese government as a Western-style government, with a particular party holding the reins and able to act with decisiveness, which doesn’t appear to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/22 "2006-07-18T16:22:46Z")
For years the IRA have operated with impunity in Ireland, despite the efforts of the British and irish govts. When a group has the support of the people, and a rural area to hide in, it can be nigh on impossible to defeat them. All very well to say “the lebanese govt should take control”, but if we can’t sort the IRA, I imagine Hamas would not be easy. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/23 "2006-07-18T16:24:06Z")
[NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/world/middleeast/18cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153281600&en=e6cb6560eb6bed2b&ei=5094&partner=homepage): > [@](#): > > In a televised speech to the Israeli Parliament, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vowed to continue the offensive until …the Lebanese Army was deployed along the border… > > Israel intensified its bombing across Lebanon on Monday, hitting an army barracks in Tripoli and bases in Baalbek, both in the north. Oooookay. Now, I could maybe understand Israel bombing the shit out of the South, with the expectation that they could weaken Hezbollah to the extent that the Lebanese Army would have an easier time cleaning them up, but is bombing the _Lebanese Army_ really a way to get this accomplished? In other words, is the _Israeli_ government serious? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/24 "2006-07-18T17:00:33Z")
> [@black rabbit](#): > > but is bombing the _Lebanese Army_ really a way to get this accomplished? > > In other words, is the _Israeli_ government serious? Israeli attacks on the Lebanese standing army have mostly been on radar installations which could be used to assist Hizbollah . Which shows how trustworthy the Lebanese army is… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/25 "2006-07-18T17:13:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Given your location, I assume you must be aware that Hezbollah is _part of_ the Lebanese government. > > You speak, though, as if you are not aware of this. Your remarks also suggest that you’re thinking of the Lebanese government as a Western-style government, with a particular party holding the reins and able to act with decisiveness, which doesn’t appear to be the case. Part of, yes. But getting elected doesn’t give you the right to run you own private militia, does it? It’s the military wing of Hizballah Israel wants dismantled. We’re not that crazy about the political wing, either, but I guess we’ll have to accept its existance. As to your second point, the Arab world has a long history of leaders acting in a dicisive, centralized fashion. True, they’ve all been dictators, but there’s nothing preventing a democracy from acting the same way, is there? Remember Israeli history - two months after achieving independence, Ben-Gurion dismantled all the militias despite their strenuous objections; with one - the Irgun - he even had to use deadly force. It was one of the best things he ever did. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/26 "2006-07-18T17:42:23Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Israeli attacks on the Lebanese standing army have mostly been on radar installations which could be used to assist Hizbollah . > Which shows how trustworthy the Lebanese army is… Uhhh… no. The only radar installations I’ve seen mention of were bombed on Sunday, and they were “targeting” Israeli ships. Which is kinda understandable, given that the ships were launching missles at the time. But anyway, if we take that at face value that the Lebanese army is providing assistance to Hezbollah and is otherwise untrustworthy, why would Israel want it deployed along its border? At least one of Israel’s stated demands is directly at cross-purposes with its actions. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/27 "2006-07-18T17:49:36Z")
Sorry, I take some of that back. Apprently there’s some confusion as to whether the Lebanese Army was directly involved with painting the ship that got hit last week. Still, army barracks? A fuel depot? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/28 "2006-07-18T19:14:25Z")
> [@black rabbit](#): > > Sorry, I take some of that back. Apprently there’s some confusion as to whether the Lebanese Army was directly involved with painting the ship that got hit last week No cite, I’m afraid, but AFAIK there is no “confusion”. The C-802 missile, while, I believe, autonomous \*after \*acquiring its target, is _ **not** _ capable of actually acquiring the target itself. It needs to have its target “handed off” to it by a “seeking” radar, of the type that the Lebanese army – and, in Lebanon, **only the Lebanese army** – have. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/29 "2006-07-19T14:09:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@RTFirefly](#): > > > > I assume you must be aware that Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. > > Part of, yes. But getting elected doesn’t give you the right to run you own private militia, does it? It’s the military wing of Hizballah Israel wants dismantled. We’re not that crazy about the political wing, either, but I guess we’ll have to accept its existance. Well, no. The point is that it kinda hinders the government of Lebanon in reaching a decision to act against Hezbollah if Hezbollah is part of that government. > [@](#): > > As to your second point, the Arab world has a long history of leaders acting in a dicisive, centralized fashion. True, they’ve all been dictators, but there’s nothing preventing a democracy from acting the same way, is there? Remember Israeli history - two months after achieving independence, Ben-Gurion dismantled all the militias despite their strenuous objections; with one - the Irgun - he even had to use deadly force. It was one of the best things he ever did. Apparently Ben-Gurion had the ability to do so. But [as Krauthammer says this morning](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/18/AR2006071801379.html), “The Lebanese are too weak” to do the same thing to Hezbollah. And even if they had a government united in the will to act against Hezbollah, and were otherwise militarily strong enough to do so, the fact would remain that Israel has been bombing the crap out of Lebanon’s roads and bridges, making it hard for the army to move south to act against Hezbollah anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/30 "2006-07-22T00:54:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well, Israel is doing a mighty fine job of killing Lebanese citizens (and others) at a very fast clip…surely some of those (2-3%?) are members of Hezbollah? > > Give them a couple of months and at present rate there might not be a _country_ by the name of Lebanon, never mind Hezbollah. > > Sort of a mini Final Solution if you will. Political soundbytes which contribute nothing. However… If this war ends within a few months, I will see a political shift from appeasement and pretty much ignoring Hezbollah by the Lebanese Government, to actually getting its ass in gear and mobilising its army and security forces into the south. I think one of the reasons as to why the Lebanese Army hasn’t mobilised to get rid of them yet is because of; A) The spectre of civil war yet again. B) The fact that after the Syrian Army left, it left a sizeable amount of Alawites in the officer corps (not confirmed, still trying to find the link) C) The army has a sizeable amount of Shia within it’s armed forces, and fears that provoking Hezbollah will lead to the dessertion and weakening (further) of its strength. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/31 "2006-07-22T01:52:45Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Political soundbytes which contribute nothing. > > However… > > If this war ends within a few months, I will see a political shift from appeasement and pretty much ignoring Hezbollah by the Lebanese Government, to actually getting its ass in gear and mobilising its army and security forces into the south. I think one of the reasons as to why the Lebanese Army hasn’t mobilised to get rid of them yet is because of; > > A) The spectre of civil war yet again. > > B) The fact that after the Syrian Army left, it left a sizeable amount of Alawites in the officer corps (not confirmed, still trying to find the link) > > C) The army has a sizeable amount of Shia within it’s armed forces, and fears that provoking Hezbollah will lead to the dessertion and weakening (further) of its strength. And how would any of that be changed at the end of this war? They’ll still have Shi’a in the Lebanese army and civil war will remain as possible and frightenint a prospect as ever before. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940/32 "2006-07-22T14:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > And how would any of that be changed at the end of this war? They’ll still have Shi’a in the Lebanese army and civil war will remain as possible and frightenint a prospect as ever before Because the population in general is seeing the price it’s paying in relation to allowing pretty much a **Hezbollaland** to operate under its own accord. After this campaign by Israel I see much much more public support in Lebanon to shift the military south and stabilise the border. I for one don’t see a collapsing of the Lebanese Government, yeah it might be weak, but it won’t collapse, the Christian and Muslim portions of the country have vested too much into it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lebanese-government-serious/364940.md?page=1)