# Is the level of outrage over "noose incidents" counterproductive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229 "2007-10-10T16:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/1 "2007-10-10T16:44:49Z")
I heard a report this morning about an African-American professor at Columbia University [finding a noose hanging from this office door.](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/columbia.noose/index.html?section=cnn_latest)[Similar](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/04/coast.guard.nooses/index.html) [incidents](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-09-race_N.htm?csp=34) have been reported, most of them in the wake of the highly public events surrounding the southern town of [Jena, La](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six). Let me start by saying that I would never dream of defending these acts; a noose is a clear symbol of threat to bodily harm in general, and given the ugly history of lynching in the US it is one particularly charged with the notion of killing someone over race. Nevertheless, I wonder if turning up the outrage on things like this is counterproductive. I submit that in most cases the perpetrators are kids or young drunks looking to cause a stir. There may be some individual racism attached to the act, but I think it’s more a general hatred born of personal frustration rather than a notion of the clear inferiority of other races. Furthermore, although the act of hanging an innocent man is clearly brutal and unjust, the real horror of lynching was that it was an accepted social practice in parts of the American south; this, in fact, is what made it more heinous than murder. As terrible as these nooses are, I don’t think they carry the same symbolism as a noose hung in the reconstruction-era South because no one today would believe the threat was backed up by an established racist social code. And while I concede the [dragging death of James Byrd Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd%2C_Jr.) is a fair counter-example, in that case the perpetraitors were quickly rounded up and 2 of the 3 sentenced to death–hardly an example of a community accepting the practice. Furthermore the ideas these bastards acted on were a result of indoctrination into white supremacist prison gangs during previous terms of incarceration–again undermining the notion their ideas are a significant undercurrent of mainstream society; the problem certainly needs to be dealt with in the penal system, but I just don’t think the prison reflects society at large. I’m very conflicted on this, since I personally think anyone who uses a noose to intimidate an African-American is committing a vile and indefensible act of agression. However, I’m concerned that over-emphasizing these incidents implies a deeper level of institutional racism than there really is, and worse, encourages addle-minded losers looking to stir up attention by giving them a demonstrated means to provoke outrage. I think the number of copycat crimes in the wake of Jena underscore this point, but I really would like to hear from other dopers on this, in the hope of clarifying my own opinion. Thx:-) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/2 "2007-10-10T16:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] I submit that in most cases the perpetrators are kids or young drunks looking to cause a stir. There may be some individual racism attached to the act, but I think it’s more a general hatred born of personal frustration rather than a notion of the clear inferiority of other races. [/quote] I disagree. Racism is still quite strong in America. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] As terrible as these nooses are, I don’t think they carry the same symbolism as a noose hung in the reconstruction-era South because no one today would believe the threat was backed up by an established racist social code. [/quote] I strongly disagree. Rightly or wrongly, many people - especially black people - **would** believe it. There are a great many people who would assume that the “justice” system would drag it’s feet, ignore, or otherwise let slide a racist assault or murder. Probably accurately, many places. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/3 "2007-10-10T17:53:00Z")
If I found a noose hanging from a tree in my front yard I’d consider it to be a threatening message. Marc ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/4 "2007-10-10T18:57:21Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] If I found a noose hanging from a tree in my front yard I’d consider it to be a threatening message. Marc [/QUOTE] Would you feel more threatened if I hung a noose in your yard, or if I sent you a personal letter stating that I wanted to kill you (while making no mention of race)? Which one would make the news? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/5 "2007-10-10T19:06:39Z")
[QUOTE=steronz] Would you feel more threatened if I hung a noose in your yard, or if I sent you a personal letter stating that I wanted to kill you (while making no mention of race)? Which one would make the news? [/QUOTE] That’s exactly the point of my original question. I don’t doubt having a noose hung in your yard is a threat, but I wonder if exasperated outrage coupled with high-octane news coverage is the proper response. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/6 "2007-10-10T19:21:16Z")
Unfortunately, my first thought when hearing about incidents like the noose at Columbia is “I wonder if he planted it there himself”. Something vaguely similar to this [occured](http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1470091.html)near me. I was roundly excoriated at work for broaching the possibility that it was a hoax. Guess what… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/7 "2007-10-10T19:47:48Z")
You can’t know for sure if these incidents are the work of bona fide racists; hoaxes perpetrated by the alleged victims; or real life trolls who just want to jerk peoples’ chains a little bit. If I were the police, I would be asking this Columbia professor to account for her whereabouts on the day in question. People need to be a little skeptical when these supposed incidents occur. They need to ask themselves if somebody is trying to manipulate them. Anyway, I’m pretty confident that there isn’t a KKK chapter at Columbia. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/8 "2007-10-10T21:14:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, my first thought when hearing about incidents like the noose at Columbia is “I wonder if he planted it there himself”. That’s your **first** thought on such occasions? Huh. I certainly don’t think you should be “excoriated”, either roundly or squarely, simply for mentioning the possibility that an alleged hate crime might turn out to be a hoax. But I’m surprised to hear that anybody encountering an allegation of racial hate crime in America would **immediately** start considering whether it might be a hoax, even before thinking “Wow, how sick and hateful” or something along those lines. I mean, it’s not like the hoaxes significantly outnumber the real racial hate crimes. ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/9 "2007-10-10T21:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] That’s your **first** thought on such occasions? Huh. I certainly don’t think you should be “excoriated”, either roundly or squarely, simply for mentioning the possibility that an alleged hate crime might turn out to be a hoax. But I’m surprised to hear that anybody encountering an allegation of racial hate crime in America would **immediately** start considering whether it might be a hoax, even before thinking “Wow, how sick and hateful” or something along those lines. I mean, it’s not like the hoaxes significantly outnumber the real racial hate crimes. [/QUOTE] But it’s not as if you can’t do both. When I hear, for example, of a wife being murdered, I will think both “that must be awful for the husband” and “there is a decent chance the husband did it” in the first few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/10 "2007-10-10T21:25:08Z")
I see what you mean, **T-SQUARE**. If “my first thought is…” is being used loosely to mean “pretty soon after hearing about such an incident I start wondering whether…” then yeah, it doesn’t sound so strange. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/11 "2007-10-10T21:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] . But I’m surprised to hear that anybody encountering an allegation of racial hate crime in America would **immediately** start considering whether it might be a hoax, even before thinking “Wow, how sick and hateful” or something along those lines. [/quote] I feel similarly to **Shodan**. My impression is that an Ivy League school like Columbia has a lot more left wing whackos than right wing whackos. > [@](#): > > I mean, it’s not like the hoaxes significantly outnumber the real racial hate crimes. In terms of graffiti type hate crimes, I doubt anyone knows that for sure. I bet if you studied it, you would find that victims of graffiti type hate crimes have a much higher likelihood (compared to the general population) of having had a history of psychological problems before the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/12 "2007-10-10T21:26:54Z")
[QUOTE=steronz] Would you feel more threatened if I hung a noose in your yard, or if I sent you a personal letter stating that I wanted to kill you (while making no mention of race)? Which one would make the news? [/QUOTE] That’s a tough call to make. Depends on how personal the letter was I suppose. At the very least I have no doubt that my letter wouldn’t make the news. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/13 "2007-10-10T21:37:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My impression is that an Ivy League school like Columbia has a lot more left wing whackos than right wing whackos. ?? Even if your impression is correct, Columbia University Teachers College, where the incident occurred, is not the same thing as “Columbia the Ivy League school”. TC is affiliated with Columbia but is an independent institution, the descendant of the 19th-century New York School for the Training of Teachers. Are you seriously saying that you consider it more likely that a black TC professor put a noose on her own office door as a hoax to get publicity than that some anonymous racist nutjob perpetrated this stunt as a Jena copycat crime? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/14 "2007-10-10T21:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] ?? Even if your impression is correct, Columbia University Teachers College, where the incident occurred, is not the same thing as “Columbia the Ivy League school”. TC is affiliated with Columbia but is an independent institution, the descendant of the 19th-century New York School for the Training of Teachers. Are you seriously saying that you consider it more likely that a black TC professor put a noose on her own office door as a hoax to get publicity than that some anonymous racist nutjob perpetrated this stunt as a Jena copycat crime? [/QUOTE] I see 4 possibilities: (1) professor puts noose on her own door; (2) anonymous left wing whacko puts noose up in order to whip up peoples’ emotions against racism; (3) troll (person who doesn’t care about racism just wants to cause a stir); (4) anonymous racist nutjob did this as Jena copycat crime. I believe it’s more likely that one of (1) or (2) is correct than that (4) is correct. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/15 "2007-10-11T09:21:37Z")
Here’s a few snippets from an article: > [@](#): > > Students are using Tuesday’s hate crime as a springboard to voice complaints and attempt to change what they call a racist and unfriendly school > > . . . > > Teachers College administrators discussed TC’s programs and curriculum, and the possibility of making institutional change. One student said she was disturbed by the representation on the panel, as 75 percent of the panelists were white. > > Fuhrman called the incident “so incongruous with what we want to believe about ourselves.” She said that students and faculty should be accessible and helpful to police, express their feelings openly, and take action. > > Fuhrman said the incident occurred as TC was trying to increase diversity and awareness, especially by bolstering the accessibility of financial aid. > > . . . > > Most students complained about the general feeling of racism at Teachers College. They said since TC prepares students to teach in Harlem schools, which are composed of minority students, race should not be just another requirement in the curriculum. Rather, it should pervade all subjects. > > “I want to thank the person who put the noose up,” said Dawn Arno, director of TC EdZone Partnership, a group of students who teach in Harlem. “If the soil is not fertile, the seed cannot grow,” referring to the event’s potential to raise awareness. [http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/27376](http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/27376) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/16 "2007-10-11T14:29:54Z")
It’s easier to get furious over something like a noose on campus than to address societal racism or our own prejudices. And that’s not just because people are lazy, those are legimately hard to deal with. As far as the ‘faking’ possibility… I do wonder why it’d be anyone’s first impulse, but it could be true. When I was in college, there was a similar incident that was faked by the alleged victim - but that’s whiteboard grafitti on a student’s door (and police apparently never believed him), not something in a Teacher’s College. I don’t suspect the victim at this point, that strikes me as a little paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/17 "2007-10-11T18:03:38Z")
According to an AP report (seen in Chicago Tribune), there are security video(s) related to the incident that the school has refused to turn over to the police. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story) This strikes me as odd. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/18 "2007-10-11T18:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Random] According to an AP report (seen in Chicago Tribune), there are security video(s) related to the incident that the school has refused to turn over to the police. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story) This strikes me as odd. [/QUOTE] It’s possible that Columbia has a policy against turning over that sort of information without a subpoena. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/19 "2007-10-11T18:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] It’s possible that Columbia has a policy against turning over that sort of information without a subpoena. [/QUOTE] Possibly, although (a) most such policies, IME, contain one or more exceptions that allow the institution to choose to turn over information to the police when a serious crime has been committed; and (b) if that were the case, one would expect Columbia to cite the policy when asked for comment. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/20 "2007-10-11T18:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=Random] Possibly, although (a) most such policies, IME, contain one or more exceptions that allow the institution to choose to turn over information to the police when a serious crime has been committed; and (b) if that were the case, one would expect Columbia to cite the policy when asked for comment. [/QUOTE] I don’t dispute that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229.md?page=2)