# Is the level of outrage over "noose incidents" counterproductive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229 "2007-10-10T16:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/41 "2007-10-11T20:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] You don’t actually think this noose hanging bit is new, do you ? [/quote] No, but so what? Your claim is that it’s unlikely to occur to a left wing whacko that hanging up a noose would get people riled up over racism, right? > [@](#): > > Simple. Say that Group X is 10 percent of the population, and that about ten percent of the rest of the population is bigoted towards X. That means that X will be faced with a number of bigots equal to nearly it’s entire population. Any sub-group of X, such as those willing to fake being the target of bigotry, are going to be outnumbered by the **real** bigots. I don’t see why the percentage of non-blacks who are bigots and whacky enough to hang up a noose ought to be equal to the percentage of blacks who are whacky enough to stage a hate crime. At Columbia, the first number is probably very low. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/42 "2007-10-11T20:40:12Z")
[QUOTE=brickbacon] That case is not analogous at all. There, you had a he said/she said situation that was made more volatile because of the race component. Here we have a victim of a crime making a report. The real issues wrt the Duke case are rape shield laws and prosecutorial discretion. To think that the “lesson” we should learn form the Duke case is to immediate distrust those reporting crimes is seriously dangerous. [/quote] Sigh. There are many lessons to be learned from the Duke Lacrosse case. One of them is “Don’t rush to judgment.” > [@](#): > > God forbid something happens to you, and you have people immediately thinking your pain was self-inflicted. Yes, hoaxes happen, but they are far more rare than real cases, and for that to be your default judgment when presented with such cases is incredibly flawed thinking. Here’s an idea: Withold judgment until the facts come in. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/43 "2007-10-11T20:41:24Z")
Had Prof. Constantine made any recent statements that were controversial enough to have ruffled feathers in Redneckistan? An incident like this is usually the tip of the iceberg of a much larger group of people. For every noose I’d expect to see hundreds of angry e-mails responding to whatever Ward Churchillian remarks she’s been making. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/44 "2007-10-11T20:51:22Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] percent of the rest of the population is bigoted towards X. That means that X will be faced with a number of bigots equal to nearly it’s entire population. Any sub-group of X, such as those willing to fake being the target of bigotry, are going to be outnumbered by the **real** bigots.. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that statistics of past racial events might legitimately be taken into account by armchair commentators discussing a new race-related event, or perhaps by an investigator deciding where to allocate resources? Or are you saying that such statistics are enough to rule out possibilities? In my view, they are very different things. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/45 "2007-10-11T20:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=brickbacon] To think that the “lesson” we should learn form the Duke case is to immediate distrust those reporting crimes is seriously dangerous. [/QUOTE] How are you using the word “distrust” here? Two possibilities come to mind. Are you saying that police and others who are in a position to consider a report of a crime should treat it seriously and act on the possibility that it is true? If so, I couldn’t agree more. Anyone who completely distrusts and therefore dismisses a crime report is rushing to judgment, and that’s a bad thing. Or are you saying that people who report crimes should be automatically believed without question, and no other possibilities should be considered? Is so, I couldn’t disagree more. Anyone who completely accepts a crime report at face value and therefore dismisses all other possibilities is rushing to judgment, and that is (also) a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/46 "2007-10-11T21:05:57Z")
Thank you, Shoshana, for this… [QUOTE=Shoshana] I think that this sort of question arises more frequently from people who are, generally speaking, members of majority cultural groups. I think that it is hard to understand what it is like to live in a culture as a minority and have to remain alert for many different kinds of dismissal, negative treatment, and threats. Have you ever been assaulted by a group of men whom you were afraid would kill you, on the basis of your membership in a group? I have. If that were to occur, would you be afraid that if you called the police you would not receive assistance based on your group membership? Been there, too. [/QUOTE] …and for this: [QUOTE=Shoshana] A dismissive explanation of the it-was-probably-some-drunk-guys-not-really-racist sort is also, frankly, quite concerning to me. When I was in college, some drunk-guys-not-really-sexist/homophobic shoved a burning porn magazine under the door of the campus women’s center. Not under the door of their frat, not under the door of the newspaper or chess club, not under the janitor’s door or the college president’s door. Had it not been spotted quickly by someone who came through the building, it was said the building, an old one, would have come down. People lived in that that building, too. Presumptive drunkenness is not exclusive of committing a hate crime or harrassment based on a minority idenmtity, and in my own experience often precipitates the crime. Presumptive drunkenness is also no excuse for threatening, antisocial behavior. [/QUOTE] I will say that I kinda understand how \*one \* of the thoughts that someone \*might \* have would be “Gee, I hope this isn’t a hoax” (especially people who apparently have an incurable case of Tawana Brawley on the brain), but to have your \*first \* thought–_your very first thought_–be “It’s probably a hoax”? What the holy fuck is wrong with you people?! Goddamn! (And no, I’m not discounting any possibility that something like this \*could \* be a hoax–lots of things are possible, right?–but I’ll be damned if I’m going to go there right out of the gate.) –Li’l Pluck–Black, gay, Jewish man (and current Columbia student) who’s quite familiar with all manner of dismisal and negative treatment. The “my first thought is it’s probably a hoax” folks ought to thank your lucky stars that you aren’t. Not, mind you, that you need my encouragement to do so. P.S.: I haven’t finished the thread yet. Bad form, I know, but I wanted to post this thought–and, I think, the following thought–before I lost it. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/47 "2007-10-11T21:14:16Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] This act isn’t an example of institutional or even social racism\" [/QUOTE] This is, I think, debatable. Or, rather, what \*\*Der Trihs \*\* said earlier. (Thanks, BTW, for that, **D.T.** ) [QUOTE=CJJ\*] Do we have a problem with race in America? Sure we do, but it isn’t because a sizeable, respected portion of the white population wants to reinstate lynching. [/QUOTE] Lynching? No. But, given my day-to-day experience, I honestly don’t believe that we’re at the point where we can say with anything approaching certainty that a sizeable portion of the White population \*doesn’t \* have racial issues. Wanna borrow my shoes for a mile?\* \*This is not to pick on you, by the way. I get the sense that your intentions are not malicious, but I also get the sense that you really don’t know the “others’” side of the coin. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/48 "2007-10-11T21:22:30Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] \who’s quite familiar with all manner of dismisal\ [/QUOTE] Damn, I hate when I do that! :smack: “D-i-s-m-i-s-s-a-l,” folks. I meant to type “dismissal.” ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/49 "2007-10-11T22:02:46Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] Lynching? No. But, given my day-to-day experience, I honestly don’t believe that we’re at the point where we can say with anything approaching certainty that a sizeable portion of the White population \*doesn’t \* have racial issues. [/quote] I guess I’m drawing a distinction here between “racist individuals” and the socialization that leads to institutional racism. Even with the racial issues that exist in the US, I don’t believe we’re at a level where hanging a noose is considered an acceptable form of expression by more than a tiny fraction of bigots. On the contrary, hanging a noose meant the enforcement of an unjust social code in the Reconstruction south, and its prevalence during the Civil Rights era indicated a clear political message. I just don’t see that here, mainly because these are scattered and isolated events that have clearly spiked in the wake of the incidents in Jena La. So I have to wonder if news accounts of such noose incidents tell us anything more than “racist idiots exist”? If that’s it, there’s nothing new there, and I suspect it’s turned into a national story for its sensational impact. That’s fine–we have whole supermarket checkout racks filled with magazines and newspaper dedicated to sensationalization of “news”–but I think it’s counterproductive since it just encourages more copycats, which in turn provokes greater public outrage, which provokes more copycats… Here’s the nub of it: For those who see a widespread racial component linking these noose incidents, what specific, underlying problem do you think they are symptomatic of? “Racism” is too general an answer; I’d appreciate something more specific like “Lack of/ineffectiveness of diversity education with respect to racist symbols,” “the general indifference to black culture in the US” or “a coordinated plan to intimidate black leaders in society”. It doesn’t have to be just one, but IMO it needs to be something more than “racists exist”. My current answer to that question is “a peculiar need among many in US society to elevate a personal statement by inducing a media circus,” and I’ll bet that in three months–once the media has moved on to some new unimportant outrage–noose incidents will be back to the “handful a year” the SPLC chronicled before Jena was splashed across the national news. The events in Jena were certainly shocking, and as they reflected a clear social problem in that part of Louisiana (e.g. the court decisions regarding the white and black teenagers in the associated criminal cases) deserved to be in the national spotlight. I was certainly shocked that such blatant institutional racism existed in the US in this day and age. But I guess I’m not that shocked some yahoo thinks hanging a noose is a good way to get some attention, and I don’t really think we should give it to him. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/50 "2007-10-11T22:29:23Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] Lynching? No. But, given my day-to-day experience, I honestly don’t believe that we’re at the point where we can say with anything approaching certainty that a sizeable portion of the White population \*doesn’t \* have racial issues. Wanna borrow my shoes for a mile?\* [/QUOTE] No way: the few racist incidents I’ve been the recipient of makes me not want to experience any more. But I wonder if the outrage over the noose incidents will not only cause more copycats but also more anti-white racism, which I obviously have more of a first-hand interest in stopping. And then anti-white racism could cause anti-black racism, etc. etc. I must say, however, that counterproductive or not, if the incidents are real they deserve the full amount of outrage _against the perpetrators_ as they have been receiving. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/51 "2007-10-12T05:15:22Z")
American Psychological Association’s response. The response will be printed in the _New York Times_ and other major newspaper outlets. > [@](#): > > * * * > > APA Opinion-Editorial > > This week, another college campus was the scene of a noose carefully placed to threaten, intimidate and shock. On Tuesday, a faculty member found the meticulously tied rope on the office door of Dr. Madonna Constantine, a well-respected African-American psychologist at Columbia University ’s Teachers College. > > This incident comes on the heels of nooses found outside the African-American cultural center at the University of Maryland , in the personal belongings of a black cadet and a white faculty member at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy and, perhaps most notoriously in recent months, on the so-called “white tree” at a high school in Jena , La. > > The people who employ these symbols are certainly aware of their power. For black Americans, the noose is a potent reminder of the nearly 5,000 African-American men and women who were hanged by whites from 1890 through the 1960s. > > This spate of noose placements serves as confirmation of the findings of a significant body of psychological studies showing that discrimination and prejudice persist in significant and demonstrable ways in our country. Research has indicated that while most people believe themselves to be free of prejudice, many also harbor attitudes that may lead to subtle discriminatory beliefs or behaviors. This contradiction between self-perception and actual behavior indicates that everyone needs to be vigilant about their own attitudes – and what we might be inadvertently teaching others around us, particularly children and students. > > There is also widespread agreement among social scientists that the social categorization process – making assumptions about people based on their race or ethnic group, including racial stereotyping – is a virtually automatic and often unconscious process. > > The strategic placement of a noose, however, involves forethought, planning and outright hostility. Indeed, these campus incidents are being investigated as hate crimes, and the perpetrators most certainly deserve strong sanctions that clearly condemn such despicable acts. > > What does psychology tell us about the backgrounds and motivations of people who commit hate crimes? For one thing, they are not mentally ill in the traditional sense; according to psychological scientists, they’re not diagnosably schizophrenic or manic depressive, for example. What those who engage in hate crimes do share, however, is a high level of aggression and antisocial behavior. > > More than just a prank > > People who commit hate crimes “are not psychotic, but they’re consistently very troubled, very disturbed, very problematic members of our community who pose a huge risk for future violence,” according to Dr. Edward Dunbar, a psychologist at UCLA who has studied hate crime perpetrators from a clinical and forensic perspective. Dunbar also notes that childhood histories of such offenders show high levels of parental or caretaker abuse and use of violence to solve family problems. > > Alcohol and drugs sometimes help fuel these crimes, but the main determinant seems to be personal prejudice, which distorts people’s judgment, blinding them to the immorality of what they are doing. > > People who commit bias crimes are more likely to deliberate and plan their attacks than those who commit other types of crimes, Dunbar adds. In addition, those who commit hate crimes show a history of such actions, beginning with smaller incidents and moving up to more serious ones. > > As for those who bear the brunt of these vicious acts, they tend to suffer emotional damage, often with the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress disorder. Hate crimes can create intense feelings of vulnerability, anger and depression. > > On a more positive note, research has demonstrated that stereotypical thinking may be reduced as a consequence of contact between people of different races. For example, research results indicate that interactions among students of different races can diminish racial stereotyping, contribute to building cross-cultural respect, and enhance social and communication skills. What’s especially encouraging about these findings is that they are particularly strong among children in K-12 learning environments. Thus, early positive experiences of diversity prepare children for the diverse world they will inhabit. > > The impact of diversity is indeed complex – but for most of us, it is not double-edged. Once we can overcome any initial discomfort with new experiences, we are prepared to derive many long-term personal, occupational and social benefits. > > Violence and hate crimes can have serious consequences for the mental health and well-being of victims and communities. My colleague Dr. Constantine is particularly knowledgeable about the various experiences that produce an individual who engages in hate crimes. I hope that her many years of research, teaching and advocating for cultural competence can help her to withstand this unconscionable attack. But mostly, I hope these repugnant incidents will be a catalyst for us all to become more committed to eliminating racism and hate. > > Sharon Stephens Brehm, PhD > > President > > American Psychological Association ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/52 "2007-10-12T05:44:52Z")
I’m still not picking up on any broader racist context that might explain why this particular professor was targeted–in NYC no less. Has she been involved in run-ins or feuds with a local racist faction? The incident bespeaks of raised hackles, so there must be some indication as to whose she might have raised. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/53 "2007-10-12T05:46:46Z")
I don’t know of any incidents, but she teaches classes about racism and diversity, and she is very well known in psychology. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/54 "2007-10-12T05:52:15Z")
Too late to edit– For a sense of her work, here are the entries from the first page of her work of Google Scholar. Most have co-authors: Examining Multicultural Counseling Competence and Race-Related Attitudes among White Marital and Family Therapists. Racial Identity Attitudes, Self-Concept, and Perceived Family Cohesion in Black College Students Challenges to the Career Development of Urban Racial and Ethnic Minority Youth: Implications for Vocational Intervention Predictors of satisfaction with counseling: Racial and ethnic minority clients’ attitudes toward … Addressing Spiritual and Religious Issues in Counseling African Americans: Implications for Counselor Training and Practice Students’Perceptions of Multicultural Training in Counseling Psychology Programs The behavioral health care needs of rural women Black Adolescents’ Racial Socialization Experiences: Their Relations to Home, School, and Peer Self- … The Intersection of Race, Ethnicity, Gender, and Social Class in Counseling: Examining Selves in … Social Desirability Attitudes, Sex, and Affective and Cognitive Empathy as Predictors of Self- ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/55 "2007-10-12T06:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] Even with the racial issues that exist in the US, I don’t believe we’re at a level where hanging a noose is considered an acceptable form of expression by more than a tiny fraction of bigots. [/QUOTE] Agreed. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] Here’s the nub of it: For those who see a widespread racial component linking these noose incidents, what specific, underlying problem do you think they are symptomatic of? “Racism” is too general an answer; I’d appreciate something more specific like “Lack of/ineffectiveness of diversity education with respect to racist symbols,” [/QUOTE] 😕 I don’t think that you could ever convince me that there are adults, of at least average intelligence and relative mental well-being, who were raised and educated in this country–especially in the latter half of the 20th century–who \*aren’t \* aware of the meaning and power of racist symbols like the noose, the burning cross, or the swastika. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] “the general indifference to black culture in the US” [/QUOTE] I understand what you’re saying, but actually, I kinda think we’d be better off if folks really \*were \* “indifferent” to Black people in the US. Then maybe we wouldn’t have to worry about job, housing, and educational discrimination, police brutality, etc., etc. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] or “a coordinated plan to intimidate black leaders in society”. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t use the word “coordinated” in the sense that we normally do, but I certainly don’t think that the kind of thinking that goes hand-in-hand with racial intimidation occurs organically and without all manner of either subtle or explicit encouragement. And you’re right: not to intimidate Black _leaders_, but _Blacks_, period. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] My current answer to that question is “a peculiar need among many in US society to elevate a personal statement by inducing a media circus,” [/QUOTE] While I won’t dispute that some of these perpertrators crave the media attention that these types of incidents typically attract, the real bottom line is, I think, the need to remind Black people that no matter what we achieve in life, we’re still just niggers. I think I can safely speak for most Black people when I say thanks, really, but we don’t need to be reminded of what many Whites think of us. And just to be clear: I am referring not only to the outliers who hang nooses or physically attack Blacks or yell “go back to Africa, nigger” from passing car windows. I am referring to many average, everyday, “what, me, racist?” White Americans, who, frankly, “frighten” me much more than the Klan or the Aryan Nation could ever hope to do. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] and I’ll bet that in three months…noose incidents will be back to the “handful a year” the SPLC chronicled before Jena was splashed across the national news [/QUOTE] We can only hope, we can only hope. [QUOTE=CJJ\*] But I guess I’m not that shocked some yahoo thinks hanging a noose is a good way to get some attention, and I don’t really think we should give it to him. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah, but the point is not to give attention to the yahoo, but to highlight the fact that this kind of ugliness still exists. Hopefully, if we keep doing that, we’ll get it right one day. Not holding my breath, but I can still hope. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/56 "2007-10-12T06:23:51Z")
[QUOTE=sqweels] I’m still not picking up on any broader racist context that might explain why this particular professor was targeted– **in NYC no less**. [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) Not to nitpick (so I hope you don’t take offense), but “in NYC no less”? Hell, there’s a reason why many older Blacks (and some of us younger ones, too) say that the South is anywhere south of the Canadian border. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/57 "2007-10-12T07:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] No way: the few racist incidents I’ve been the recipient of makes me not want to experience any more. But I wonder if the outrage over the noose incidents will not only cause more copycats but also more anti-white racism, which I obviously have more of a first-hand interest in stopping. And then anti-white racism could cause anti-black racism, etc. etc. I must say, however, that counterproductive or not, if the incidents are real they deserve the full amount of outrage _against the perpetrators_ as they have been receiving. [/QUOTE] Well, the first thing that I would say is that, IMO, anti-white racism (by Blacks) is most definitely not the cause of anti-black racism (by Whites). Not, mind you, that I believed that you were saying otherwise. I’m just trying to say that, even within the context of the whole noose point/counterpoint scenario that you suggested, anti-black racism would continue to exist just fine of its own accord. ☹ Now, as for outrage over the noose incidents being the cause of anti-white racism? Well, no…and yes. IOW, most of the Blacks I’ve known who’ve been angry about White racism–and justifiably so–could never be described, by any definition of the word, as anti-white. I have, however, encountered my share of Blacks who’ve held attitudes that could certainly fall under the rubric of “anti-white”. I would say, though, that even most of those (“most” is strange to use here since the number of these kinds of people I’ve encountered has been almost negligible) could be more accurately described as (for one thing) really, \*really \* angry people who’ve suffered from racism and don’t know quite how to channel their frustration. At any rate, I’d say that most of the (mentally stable) Blacks out there who are anti-white didn’t become anti-white in a vacuum, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/58 "2007-10-12T14:29:38Z")
[More from Columbia Teacher’s College](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)… > [@](#): > > …police were called to the Ivy League campus again Thursday to probe another distasteful discovery – a caricature of a yarmulke-wearing man and a swastika found on a bathroom stall door. The NYPD’s hate crime unit was investigating the black-ink drawing, but police said there was no reason to believe the two incidents were linked. > > University President Lee Bollinger said the sketch was promptly removed. He said he was reluctant to call attention to the drawings because he did not want to “broadcast, in any way, the message they attempt to send or empower those behind them.” I think President Bollinger is beginning to see that overblowing these incidents is exactly the wrong approach; it just encourages more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/59 "2007-10-12T14:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] I think President Bollinger is beginning to see that overblowing these incidents is exactly the wrong approach; it just encourages more of the same. [/QUOTE] They ignored this in Jena and dismissed it as a prank; I don’t think that helped anybody either. It’s true that people will copy a lot of things that get negative attention, though. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > All the people who perpetrate these kinds of hoaxes are liars…does that mean we can never believe the reasons they give for doing it? I think we’d be well advised to take them with, at least, a big grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/60 "2007-10-12T15:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] [More from Columbia Teacher’s College](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-columbia-noose,1,1351457.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)… I think President Bollinger is beginning to see that overblowing these incidents is exactly the wrong approach; it just encourages more of the same. [/QUOTE] Slight nitpick. I didn’t feel like signing up and registering to read the article you linked to, but if it’s about the anti-Semitic graffiti found in a restroom stall, that incident, according to an e-mail message sent out to students by President Bollinger, occured in Lewisohn Hall, which is on Columbia’s main campus and is not a part of Teacher’s College. Lewisohn Hall houses, among other things, the administrative and financial aid offices for CU’s School of General Studies (its undergraduate division for non-traditional students). It, like some other buildings on campus, is not (during the day, anyway) a keycard-restricted building, so anyone from the community (and from outside the community) can get in. As for Bollinger’s reluctance to broadcast the offenders’ message(s) going forward? I’m not sure what to make of this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets an earful from at least some of the students about it. There’s actually going to be a meeting between administration and students late this morning (as you might imagine, the “X” one in several days). I can’t go b/c I have an appointment elsewhere that I shouldn’t cancel without compelling reason, but even if I \*were \* able to attend, I might opt, for reasons that I can’t get into right now, not to. Anyway, I just wanted to clear up that bit about Lewisohn. ETA: And “overblowing”? I just want to point out that that’s \*not \* how Bollinger characterized publicizing these kinds of incidents, and I \*seriously \* doubt that he would. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229.md?page=4)