# Is the level of outrage over "noose incidents" counterproductive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229 "2007-10-10T16:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/61 "2007-10-12T15:30:58Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] ETA: And “overblowing”? I just want to point out that that’s \*not \* how Bollinger characterized publicizing these kinds of incidents, and I \*seriously \* doubt that he would. [/QUOTE] I should have perhaps said “letting incidents like this become overblown by others.” My apologies to Mr. Bollinger. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/62 "2007-10-12T15:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I think we’d be well advised to take them with, at least, a big grain of salt. [/QUOTE] Although I wouldn’t disagree that someone who perpetrates such an act probably has some kind of personality problem or desire to get attention, that can certainly go hand in hand with or not contradict another purpose, such as trying to bring attention to racism. It seems from what I remember that oftentimes these fake hate crimes are done by people who have previous involvement with racial issues. No cite at the moment…will try to dig one up when I get some time later. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/63 "2007-10-12T15:59:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It seems from what I remember that oftentimes these fake hate crimes are done by people who have previous involvement with racial issues. No cite at the moment…will try to dig one up when I get some time later. [/QUOTE] I might be willing to buy that those people did it to bring attention to their causes. But as far as who did this, I think it’s either some jackass racist/prankster, or, less likely, the professor. Do you know of a lot of dumb, “well-meaning” leftists who fake crimes against _others_? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/64 "2007-10-12T16:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Although I wouldn’t disagree that someone who perpetrates such an act probably has some kind of personality problem or desire to get attention, that can certainly go hand in hand with or not contradict another purpose, such as trying to bring attention to racism. It seems from what I remember that oftentimes these fake hate crimes are done by people who have previous involvement with racial issues. No cite at the moment…will try to dig one up when I get some time later. [/QUOTE] Are you thinking of [Kerri Dunn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerri_Dunn) here? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/65 "2007-10-12T16:28:58Z")
[QUOTE=Shoshana] I don’t know of any incidents, but she teaches classes about racism and diversity, and she is very well known in psychology. [/QUOTE] > [@Li'l Puck](#): > > Not to nitpick (so I hope you don’t take offense), but “in NYC no less”? > > Hell, there’s a reason why many older Blacks (and some of us younger ones, too) say that the South is anywhere south of the Canadian border. Then why doesn’t this kind of thing happen every day there? NYC is very diverse and densely populated. Why would a purely random racist single her out? Sure, she’s active in opposing racism, but so are a lot of people, and on a broad political front rather than by clashing with a specific group. If she had dissed the FDNY or something–or General Petraeus–then maybe. There’s good chance an obnoxious student of hers is pushing her buttons. But Prof. Constantine appears to have the motive to want to provoke a Jena-style anti-racist backlash, so _maybe_ it’s a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/66 "2007-10-12T17:07:04Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] Are you thinking of [Kerri Dunn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerri_Dunn) here? [/QUOTE] Thanks…I do think that might be one I was thinking of, because I recall it taking place in California. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/67 "2007-10-12T17:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I might be willing to buy that those people did it to bring attention to their causes. But as far as who did this, I think it’s either some jackass racist/prankster, or, less likely, the professor. Do you know of a lot of dumb, “well-meaning” leftists who fake crimes against _others_? [/QUOTE] I never called them dumb or well-meaning…I don’t think I would use those terms to describe them. But I don’t see why a hate crime couldn’t be faked on someone else. In this case, say the person who did it is white? It would be somewhat confusing for them to hang a noose on their own door, and certainly wouldn’t do a good job of drawing attention to racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/68 "2007-10-12T17:31:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I never called them dumb or well-meaning…I don’t think I would use those terms to describe them. [/quote] Sorry, those were my terms. > [@](#): > > But I don’t see why a hate crime couldn’t be faked on someone else. There’s no reason it _couldn’t_, but the difference in penalties is probably enough to dissuade people from doing it. Xander Saide lied about being threatened at knifepoint. If he’d threatened someone else at knifepoint, he could have been killed or beaten, then sentenced to a long time in jail. Instead, when the whole thing fell apart, he only got charged with filing a false police report. If you hang a noose on your own door, that’s basically all you’ve done. If you do it to someone else, even if you later say there was no threat, you’ve committed a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/69 "2007-10-12T19:25:16Z")
> [@CJJ's link](#): > > a caricature of a yarmulke-wearing man and a swastika found on a bathroom stall door. I’d be curious to know how many people’s first thought in relation to **this** incident was “I wonder if it’s just a hoax”. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/70 "2007-10-12T20:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Then why doesn’t this kind of thing happen every day there? Dear me. why doesn’t every woman raped, or every black family get a burning cross on their lawn, or every soldier get shot, or every bridge not collapse? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/71 "2007-10-12T21:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] I’d be curious to know how many people’s first thought in relation to **this** incident was “I wonder if it’s just a hoax”. [/QUOTE] My feeling is the same. I’m very skeptical that it’s the result of racism/anti-semitism that’s organized, institutional, widespread, or otherwise reflective of Columbia as a whole. I think there’s a good chance that the author isn’t anti-Semitic but is just someone who either wants to stir things up or wants to whip up peoples’ emotions against racism/anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/72 "2007-10-12T21:11:38Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] They ignored this in Jena and dismissed it as a prank; I don’t think that helped anybody either. It’s true that people will copy a lot of things that get negative attention, though. I think we’d be well advised to take them with, at least, a big grain of salt. [/QUOTE] No, they suspended the students for 3 days. That is not ignoring or dismissing it. They could have done more, but characterizing it as ignoring/dismissal is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/73 "2007-10-12T21:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] No, they suspended the students for 3 days. That is not ignoring or dismissing it. They could have done more, but characterizing it as ignoring/dismissal is incorrect. [/QUOTE] A slap on the wrist for a death threat **is** dismissing it, by most people’s standards. Especially when they overrode the principle to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/74 "2007-10-13T04:36:29Z")
What principle did they override?? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/75 "2007-10-13T05:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=Random] What principle did they override?? [/QUOTE] I believe he is referring to the PrinciPAL (who may or may not have had principles). The Principal in Jena wanted a stronger punishment for showing the noose - the school board overrode that. The students were still suspended for 3 days for something that could have been defended as freedom of speech (IMHO). I started a separate thread on nooses & punishment (in hopes of separating out some of the other issues): > **[What SHOULD be the punishment for hanging a noose?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=439983)** > > Starting with Jena, and now at Columbia, we have people hanging nooses. I understand the symbolism of the noose. I was reading a recent Jena 6 article, and it mentioned that the 3 students who put up the nooses were suspended, but not prosecuted. ... ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/76 "2007-10-13T05:22:30Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] I believe he is referring to the PrinciPAL [/QUOTE] Ahh. I thought he might be refering to something from Engels. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229/77 "2007-10-13T06:22:37Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] I believe he is referring to the PrinciPAL (who may or may not have had principles). [/QUOTE] :smack: Yes. Princi **pal.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-level-of-outrage-over-noose-incidents-counterproductive/422229.md?page=3)