# Is the "lipid hypothesis" all hogwash? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532 "2011-02-16T02:36:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/21 "2011-02-18T10:28:25Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > It appears to me the medical profession is unable or unwilling to sort out who would be harmed from these substances from who would not, and defaults to “better safe than sorry” blanket recommendations for everyone to limit their salt intake and keep their cholesterol levels down. I think that’s a bit unfair. Experiments on humans are kind of frowned upon, and most effects will take a few decades to manifest. So doctors look at a large group of people with disease X and find a high level of B in the blood. That can be done just looking at existing data. But then the difficult part starts: 1. Does a high level of B cause X, 2. does X cause a high level of B, 3. are they both unrelated, 4. does a high level of B only cause X in people with a genetic predisposition, but not the rest, and how common is that genetic predisposition in the general population? 5. Or is a high level of B a consquence of a general unhealthy lifestyle and thus only an indicator, but not a cause? How can the doctors find the answer to this important question from the data gathered? Answer: they can’t. They need to devise new tests for each seperate hypothesis, assign different groups, and wait (optimally) 20 years before looking at the results. But in the meantime, to be on the safe side, they recommend that people lower their level of B to avoid X. 20 years later, the doctors find out it’s hypothesis 3, and the real cause is level of C, which they didn’t notice before. So now research starts all over again. And all the people who lowered B think that the doctors are idiots. But if hypothesis 1 turned out to be correct, the initial recommendation would have saved a lot of lifes, so the doctors did the right thing by playing “better safe than sorry”. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/22 "2011-02-18T16:05:07Z")
Wow, **Surreal** , good job. **typoink** , I’ve got enough peer-reviewed papers like the above, reliable websites, testimonials and personal experience up the wazoo, that by the time I got it organized to post, this thread would be dead and gone. Fat Head is a great start, and he’s got a great blog. He also produced a short DVD series that goes into some more detail on the LH that is available on his blog. Oh, and I don’t read Weston A Price (raw milk faddists) and certainly not Kevin Trudeau. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/23 "2011-02-18T16:18:33Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > My memory is getting pretty awful, but I thought that Gary Taubes wrote that it was beginning to appear as though the culprit was a lipoprotein which transports LDL cholesterol. Yes, [here is an article he wrote for the NY Times about cholesterol](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27taubes.html?_r=1) which describes it and the cholesterol/heart disease questions. It’s a couple years old now, though, so there could be more current answers. Funny you should say that - a later paragraph states “[Statins] decrease the total number of low-density and very low-density lipoproteins in the blood, including the smallest and densest form of LDL, which is now widely believed to be particularly noxious” I just saw a study yesterday disputing that effect. Taubes, BTW, is an excellent researcher and writer. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/24 "2011-02-18T16:31:34Z")
[Summary of the lipid hypothesis and the value of statins.](http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/7/21/statins-and-the-cholesterol-hypothesis-part-i.html) I strongly agree with most of the points he makes here. And like most people who eat within the perimeters detailed on his blog, I have seen my HDL climb significantly (and my HDL to LDL ratio get even better) with very high intake of saturated fat. **Angel** , I found Weston Price’s \*Nutrition and Physical Degeneration \*fascinating and a valuable resource, as do many intelligent people with an interest in health and nutrition (including Tom Naughton - who could also be described as a raw milk faddist - and Dr. Kurt Harris). The Weston A. Price Foundation is a totally different creature, but shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand either IMO. ---
**Author:** ![heavyarms553](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@heavyarms553](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavyarms553)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/25 "2011-02-18T16:34:12Z")
Have none of you guys heard of the hyperlipidemias out there? Familial Hyperchylomicronemia - autosomal recessive mutation in lipoprotein lipase - causes lipemia retinalis, eruptive xanthomas, hepatosplenomegally, bouts of acute pancreatitis, and heart disease. Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia - autosomal codominant mutation in LDL receptors - causes childhood heart disease which kills before the age of 10 without a liver transplant. B-Sitosterolemia - autosomal recessive inability to secrete specific sterols in bile - Tendon xanthomas, and huge risk of coronary artery disease. Tangiers disease - autosomal recessive inability to make HDL - xanthomas, hepatosplenomegally, neuropathies, coronary artery disease. You don’t need to do experiments, there are plenty of people with perturbed lipid metabolism that present with terrible disease. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/26 "2011-02-18T17:07:18Z")
Interesting thread. I have an interest in the topic. Iwonder what heart experts have to say about three data points: -the inuit/eskimo people. Despite eating a diet of pure fat and meat, they show little incidence of heart disease-why is this? -the Masia people of east Africa-they live off milk and blood 9from the cos they heard)-they don’t seem to suffer from heart disease. -the experience of the late Dr. Atkins: Atkins claimed that people who ate his low carbohydrate/high protein diet have a very low incidence of heart diase, and very low cholesteral levels. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/27 "2011-02-18T17:28:27Z")
> [@heavyarms553](#): > > Have none of you guys heard of the hyperlipidemias out there? > > Familial Hyperchylomicronemia - autosomal recessive mutation in lipoprotein lipase - causes lipemia retinalis, eruptive xanthomas, hepatosplenomegally, bouts of acute pancreatitis, and heart disease. > > Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia - autosomal codominant mutation in LDL receptors - causes childhood heart disease which kills before the age of 10 without a liver transplant. > > B-Sitosterolemia - autosomal recessive inability to secrete specific sterols in bile - Tendon xanthomas, and huge risk of coronary artery disease. > > Tangiers disease - autosomal recessive inability to make HDL - xanthomas, hepatosplenomegally, neuropathies, coronary artery disease. > > You don’t need to do experiments, there are plenty of people with perturbed lipid metabolism that present with terrible disease. What does this have to do with people without these genetic defects (ie most people)? ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/28 "2011-02-18T17:54:08Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > **Angel** , I found Weston Price’s \*Nutrition and Physical Degeneration \*fascinating and a valuable resource, as do many intelligent people with an interest in health and nutrition (including Tom Naughton - who could also be described as a raw milk faddist - and Dr. Kurt Harris). The Weston A. Price Foundation is a totally different creature, but shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand either IMO. Yeah, you’re right, I kind of regretted painting that broad a brush after writing that. I’m not quite convinced about the safety of raw milk yet, but heck, I don’t drink much milk anyway! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/29 "2011-02-18T17:58:23Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting thread. I have an interest in the topic. Iwonder what heart experts have to say about three data points: > -the inuit/eskimo people. Despite eating a diet of pure fat and meat, they show little incidence of heart disease-why is this? > -the Masia people of east Africa-they live off milk and blood 9from the cos they heard)-they don’t seem to suffer from heart disease. > -the experience of the late Dr. Atkins: Atkins claimed that people who ate his low carbohydrate/high protein diet have a very low incidence of heart diase, and very low cholesteral levels. I am not an expert in this area but here is what the experts say: [The](http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(02)00364-7/abstract) [inuits](http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(07)00049-4/abstract): > [@](#): > > The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison populations. If the mortality from IHD is low, it seems not to be associated with a low prevalence of general atherosclerosis … > [@](#): > > The prevalence of symptomatic CHD (AP, self-reported MI) was 7.3% among men and 6.9% among women, and 12.2% and 13.4% of men and women had ischaemic ECG changes. The overall prevalence of CHD (AP+self-reported MI+ECG defined MI) was 10.8% in men and 10.2% in women. The highest prevalence was observed in the least westernized areas in Greenland. … The prevalence of markers of CHD was not different from that in Western populations. The [Masai](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/1/26.abstract). They have not been seriously studied for a long time now but the understanding was that they get atherosclerosis but that their level of activity protects them: > [@](#): > > These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious. That noted, the concept that milk might also have some [protective](http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n5/abs/1601869a.html) effects has been considered as well. And what they say about the [Atkin’s diet](http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090401/how-the-atkins-diet-fares-in-cholesterol) claims: > [@](#): > > While on the low-carb, high-fat diet, LDL cholesterol levels increased slightly, compared to decreases of about 12% and 17% respectively, during the South Beach and Ornish phases of the study. > After a month on the Atkins-like diet, study participants showed less blood vessel flexibility than they did after a month on the Ornish diet. > CRP levels remained in the normal range with all three diets, but levels went down slightly while participants were on the South Beach and Ornish diets and they went up slightly on the high-fat, low-carb diet, Miller tells WebMD. **rhub** what it has to do with it is considering them as “natural experiments” - disturb lipid metabolism with genetic defects and heart disease increases. Lower cholerstol with statins and heart disease decreases. Is it an absolute slam dunk case? No. Is it very strong evidence? Yes. There is no conspiracy in the medical field (as many of the links proferred claim) to surpress or censor conflicting studies. May the consensus change as more information comes along? Of course. The literature is full of studies debating what balances of fats and sorts of fats may be best and how much the emphasis should be placed decreasing simple carbs and increasing fats from nuts and fish. Science is always a work in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/30 "2011-02-18T19:01:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I am not an expert in this area but here is what the experts say: > > [The](http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(02)00364-7/abstract) [inuits](http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(07)00049-4/abstract): > > The [Masai](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/1/26.abstract). They have not been seriously studied for a long time now but the understanding was that they get atherosclerosis but that their level of activity protects them: > That noted, the concept that milk might also have some [protective](http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n5/abs/1601869a.html) effects has been considered as well. > > And what they say about the [Atkin’s diet](http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090401/how-the-atkins-diet-fares-in-cholesterol) claims: > > **rhub** what it has to do with it is considering them as “natural experiments” - disturb lipid metabolism with genetic defects and heart disease increases. Lower cholerstol with statins and heart disease decreases. Is it an absolute slam dunk case? No. Is it very strong evidence? Yes. There is no conspiracy in the medical field (as many of the links proferred claim) to surpress or censor conflicting studies. May the consensus change as more information comes along? Of course. The literature is full of studies debating what balances of fats and sorts of fats may be best and how much the emphasis should be placed decreasing simple carbs and increasing fats from nuts and fish. Science is always a work in progress. True, LCHF regimens may increase LDL in some cases, but there is a positive change, overall in other lipid markers. So the net effect is an improvement in your ratios, such as TC/HDl and TC/LDL. Here, I’ve got to go run errands, and this is the best I can do right now, but here’s a link and a quote: > [@](#): > > More studies in the NEL demonstrate that low-carbohydrate diets improve CVD risk markers than demonstrate the opposite. The DGAC Report cites two studies that found increased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the low-carbohydrate arm. Six studies from the NEL that are not mentioned in the conclusions of the DGAC Report demonstrate the reliable increase in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and the reliable and usually dramatic decrease in triacylglycerols that occur in response to carbohydrate restriction In the face of contradictory evidence: Report of the Dietary Guidelines for Americans Committee > **[Nutrition | Journal | ScienceDirect.com by Elsevier](https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/nutrition)** > > Read the latest articles of Nutrition at ScienceDirect.com, Elsevier’s leading platform of peer-reviewed scholarly literature As the title implies, this is a rather frustrated response to the DGAC committee, as much as a published article can be. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/31 "2011-02-18T19:44:47Z")
It is important to keep in mind the potentially differing effect of cholesterol reduction in those with established coronary heart disease compared to those without it. There are numerous studies, of high ‘quality’, demonstrating that cholesterol lowering (with statins espectially) reduce the _recurrence_ of heart attacks, angina, coronary occlusions, etc. [Here is one representative study](http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/13/1427) - a meta-analysis of 25 studies involving 70,000 individuals. It showed a 20 to 25 percent reduction in ‘bad outcomes’ such as death, heart attacks, etc., in people who already had coronary disease but who then used a statin drug. It is worth emphasizing that meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials, such as that in this study, is the best evidence attainable. Hence, this result (which is typical of other similar studies) should be considered closest to the “truth”. It is also important to distinguish between attempts at dietary manipulation of cholesterol (and thence heart disease) from drug-based interventions. The former, as pointed out earlier in this thread, seems to be of little or no benefit (at least when employing the traditional, “consensus” type dietary recommendations). OTOH, when used by people at highest risk (i.e. with known heart disease), drug treatment to lower cholesterol (LDL) is of real and significant benefit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/32 "2011-02-18T19:50:27Z")
Lawd knows the Atkin’s diet has had its day on these boards. FWIW my personal take on it is that it can be effective to lose weight and that the maintenance phase is fairly consistent with mainstream advice, keeping saturated fat to 10% or less. It does not hold up as evidence that a high saturated fat diet is healthy as it does _not_ advocate high saturated fat long term and the short term high saturated fat phase sacrifices some [worsening](http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/6/1274) of vascular compliance and increased inflammation (which as noted may be more important than lipids) in return for the benefits of weight loss, which they then advise maintaining with a low saturated fat diet. Low carb is the not the question in this thread; high saturated fat and the role of various lipids in atherogenesis pathophysiology is. Indeed there is some good evidence (to my read anyway, including even in the link I just gave) that limiting simple carbohydrates may be of benefit, and that diets higher than the current mainstream recommendations in monosaturated and polyunsaturated fats (MUFA and PUFAs) have significant benefits. That however informs little on the questions asked. And I note that your response, defending the Atkin diet by pointing out what you see as its other putatively beneficial effect on lipid profiles, implicitly accepts the lipid hypothesis as valid, whereas I was focussed more on the functional effect on blood vessel flexibility and on inflammatory markers, which have independently been correlated with many adverse health outcomes including mortality. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/33 "2011-02-18T23:10:47Z")
I’m not sure who you’re replying to, but I’ll respond. Not exactly sure where you’re getting that I’m promoting Atkins – I follow more of a “caveman” regimen, but did start on Atkins. Atkins is neither the first nor the only LC diet and I did not have it in mind when I linked the paper. But since you brought it up, I’m not sure you’re correct that it is not high SF long term. Which book are you talking about? The new one? Not saying you’re wrong, I’ll have to go back and check. Whether the LH is correct or not, its application via public policy to the American public (and other populations) via things like the Food Pyramid has encouraged the consumption of huge quantities of carbohydrates. There is no question to me that this increase in carb consumption has been disastrous. I agree with you, and venture a guess that most low-carb advocates would agree, that the consumption of saturated fat in the presence of excessive carbs IS harmful. Hence the existence of the dietary philosophy in the first place. As far as the research papers, you must agree that to isolate the effect of one element (saturated fat) on, say, lipid markers, you must limit the effect of others (carbohydrates). That’s my guess as to why the comparative dietary schemes are labeled “low-carb.” I’m not trying to be a smartass, but how else are you going to do it? My response was only to your comment about the raising of LDL, not blood vessel flexibility or inflammation, which I have not read enough on yet to address, so I’d be happy to hear more. Regarding the post topic, I think the OP wanted some verification of some scientific nonsupport of the LH, which I think he got. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/34 "2011-02-18T23:19:42Z")
Well, I don’t think high saturated fat intake is harmful, regardless of the rest of the diet. My current opinion is that it has an anti-inflammatory, protective effect. _chugs more heavy cream_ However more fat in the diet often means more total calories, which often becomes more body fat. I’m not finding the Carbohydrate Hypothesis so convincing these days. Applied to people without borked metabolisms, that is - of which I am one. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/35 "2011-02-18T23:30:56Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > _chugs more heavy cream_ Yerch. Ignore her, she’s teh weirds. EVCO for me. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/36 "2011-02-19T01:03:58Z")
I eat loads of that too. Keep in mind that I keenly desire to gain 10-20 lbs, for the sake of vanity and athletic performance. I tried doing it high-carb, and I got really sick (and even large amounts of the carbs that don’t aggravate my digestion and skin, like potatoes and white rice, make my energy levels ‘crash’ so that’s no good either). One can only eat so much protein, and I need a shitload of calories, so I’ve turned to fat by default as it were. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/37 "2011-02-19T01:16:10Z")
**Angel** , I had responded to a request about what the experts said about the beneficial effects of the Atkin’s diet visavis the lipid hypothesis, and you disputed it. As far as separating the effect of saturated fat from the effect of carbs, please click on [this link](http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/6/1274) already provided. A high saturated fat diet impairs blood vessel flexibility and causes an increase in inflammation markers. A diet high in PUFA or MUFAs does not. A diet high in carbs does not. I will have to just leave it that I, and Cochrane, and the vast majority of medical scientists, disagree with you about the “scientific nonsupport” for the lipid hypothesis, even though I strongly suspect that lipid levels alone are not the complete story, and even while I agree that the importance of low amounts of simple carbs is underemphasized and that the importance of adequate amounts of PUFAs and MUFAs are just beginning to be understood. Your “caveman diet” has good scientific support and does not conflict with the lipid hypothesis at all. (See this article - “Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet: Health benefits of a Paleo diet” by L A Frassetto, M Schloetter, M Mietus-Synder, R C Morris and A Sebastian in European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 63, 947-955 (August 2009) | doi:10.1038/ejcn.2009.4 - along with other benefits are improved lipids.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/38 "2011-02-19T02:26:04Z")
An [abstract](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185) of that article and a [pdf of the article](http://www.yaboga.com/paleo-metabolic.pdf) as well. > [@](#): > > a paleolithic type diet comprising lean meat, fruits, vegetables and nuts, and excluding nonpaleolithic type foods, such as cereal grains, dairy or legumes … Compared with the baseline (usual) diet, we observed (a) significant reductions in BP associated with improved arterial distensibility (-3.1+/-2.9, P=0.01 and +0.19+/-0.23, P=0.05);(b) significant reduction in plasma insulin vs time AUC, during the OGTT (P=0.006); and (c) large significant reductions in total cholesterol, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) and triglycerides (-0.8+/-0.6 (P=0.007), -0.7+/-0.5 (P=0.003) and -0.3+/-0.3 (P=0.01) mmol/l respectively). In all these measured variables, either eight or all nine participants had identical directional responses when switched to paleolithic type diet, that is, near consistently improved status of circulatory, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism/physiology. **Rhub** you can get a mess of calories with nuts, nut butters, avocados, game meats, fish, olive oil and other sources of MUFAs and PUFAs. If you are interested in building strength, then you may appreciate that such is the basis of [crossfit](http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-diet.html)’s nutrition advice as well. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/39 "2011-02-19T02:32:18Z")
And **Angel** I got the 10% saturated fat from one of the articles I linked to: > [@](#): > > Atkins Vice President of Nutrition and Education Colette Heimowitz, MSc, says that on the maintenance phase of the Atkins diet, fat should make up no more than 40% of total calories, and no more than 10% of calories should come from saturated fat. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532/40 "2011-02-19T03:26:25Z")
Whoo - I’m all fought out; I’ll have to come back and fight another day _yawn_ Definitely think/agree the complete story lies not with any one argument, and will probably turn out to somewhere in between. The only thing I will point out is that there is more than one variant of the “caveman” diet - not all stick to lean meat. We generally avoid processed vegetable oils, regardless of MUFA/PUFA content. But again, I’m not well read enough to make an argument re inflammation, although I’ve certainly seen material on that subject. It’s best to stick with what the original Atkins books say rather than the present Atkins Foundation. They lost trust with the manufacture of fake foods (bars, etc.) You got me curious about the original edition, though. Or I’ll take your word. I’ll check out your latest link soon.Have a good night! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-lipid-hypothesis-all-hogwash/571532.md?page=3)