Is the M-16 the best weapon we can produce?

Tranquilis and Turbo Dog, thanks for the information. If the flechette rounds break up and tumble then I can understand how they could do more damage (5.56 just tumbles, I think). I do wonder if projectiles that break up after entering the body are legal under the Geneva conventions, though.

And that G36 looks awesome, I wish I could get one.

I hadn’t heard of Ghost Recon, but I’ll definitely keep an eye out for it, I loved the Rainbow Six games (except for that heartbeat detector thing, what a croc).

Alert! Alert! This is a semi-high jack of this thread.

Quit worrying about whether the M-16 is the best general purpose infantry weapon we can develop and put in the hands of private soldiers and still expect it to work. Maybe it is, maybe it ain’t. The real question ( considerations that it is a highly effective man killer aside) is whether it is fun to use. It is a regular party to fire the M-16. It’s easy to load, it has minimum recoil, when you stray off target it will throw up really spectacular clouds of dust and debris. You can just flat shred a cardboard target. You can fire it all day without having a bruise from your neck all the way down to your elbow and without going deaf. If you use a subcaliber device, it is cheap to shoot. It is fun to fire.

Now comes the high jack. Even more fun is the old .45 cal. Colt pistol. What a hunk of iron. Emptying the .45 at rapid fire was just like the 4th of July. Lots of guys were afraid of it because of the recoil, which was fierce, but if the shooter just relaxed it was reasonably accurate at the short ranges it was designed for. Incidentally, the pistol was designed to knock down a charging, hopped up Filipino tribesman, something the .45 cal. revolver and the .38 cal. revolver in use at the turn of the 19th Century did not do. Knock him down even if you only winged him.

Another fun weapon was the .50 cal. machine gun. It has a fairly slow rate of fire and often on a short burst you could both the gun go off and the bullet strike down range. Bang, bang, bang-thump, thump, thump.

End of high jack.

Actually, the 5.56 NATO round both tumbles (Well, turns around) and breaks up. Generally 5-7 pieces, if I recall correctly, but generally two main parts; The jacketed front-end, and the unjacketed rear end.

Obviously, this means it’s not against the Geneva convention, since it’s one of the most widely-used millitary rounds, nowadays :slight_smile:

5.56 NATO (.223 Remington) has a bad habit of breaking at the cannelure (the depressed ring located near the middle of the projectile), resulting in two major fragments, and sometimes a few minor fragments. This isn’t by design, as so is permissible under the Geneva agreements (hypocracy, anyone?). The 5.56 round is fairly unstable, and does a lot of the nasty things that flechettes do, just not quite so bad. It’s a fairly deadly round, having the best(?) aspects of a heavier bullet, while permitting a soldier to carry large quantities of ammo, and doing grievous harm similar to a flechette, should it hit it’s mark

I tried to find the Geneva Convention online before posting my previous comment but I couldn’t find anything on fragments. I’ve poked around a bit more and I think I found the relevant convention here:

CONVENTION ON PROHIBITIONS OR RESTRICTIONS ON THE USE OF CERTAIN CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS WHICH MAY BE DEEMED TO BE EXCESSIVELY INJURIOUS OR TO HAVE INDISCRIMINATE EFFECTS AND PROTOCOLS

(catchy title, eh?)

It says:

So… I don’t know. It looks like stuff can break up so long as it’s detectable on X-rays. I had thought the rules were stiffer than that.

On the other hand, it’s entirely possible that there’s another convention out there that I missed that limits fragments in some other way.

Projectiles that break up by design were forbidden by the third Hague declaration of 1899 (not a typo):

  • the declaration is still effective, because it’s so specific. There’s a catch-all somewhere in one of the other conventions (I don’t recall which one) about weapons causing “unnecessary suffering”, and that probably would cover it as well.

This link is highly recommended for those seeking info on conventions etc: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

S. Norman

…mentioned a few posts ago, is the needle gun… While I don’t have any hard quotes on it, I’ve heard about it, it was tested in the 60’s I heard and was quite effective. The problem was that it would tear out very large amounts of the body on it’s exit and was deemed inhumane by the U.N… The primary advantage to such weapons is the ammo is incredibly light.

The HK G11 was another interesting caseless round candidate.

This is a little embarassing, but here’s something I once wrote about an affordable Marine commercial off-the-shelf data/communications system.

Hey, that’s exactly the kind of site I was searching for, thanks, S. Norman.

I’m guessing that we are near the limits of what we can do with current weapons technology (that is to say using chemical explosives to project a small lead projectile through a metal tube). Other than slight incremental changes, the 5.56mm or 7.62mm rifle is about as good as it will ever get in terms of stopping power, cost, range, and ammo capacity.

Any significant improvement would require some new technology that would radically change all firearms. It’s kind of like how in the old days, you could only improve on the smooth bore musket for so long. At some point, someone needed to come across the idea for a rifled barrel, self contained cartridge, multiple round magazine, automatic firing action, and so on in order to produce a better weapon.

So there really isn’t any point in replacing the M-16 until someone invents a rifle that uses some new technology like:

C-aseless ammo

-Self guiding ammo (Heres an interesting idea some
scientists are working on
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/department/ae/labinfo/AAL/blam_concept.html)

-Some kind of super high velocity or high explosive ammo that can puncture a tank but is still roughly < 10mm.

-Directed energy weapon (ie a laser rifle or similar exotic weapon).

While we have the attention of several who might know, let me ask about the folkklore I’ve often heard attached to the M-16. That is that it was designed to embark a high-velocity low-caliber round with a high rate of fire that wouldn’t necessarily enjoy the stopping power of something like the .45, but would poke a lot of holes in a lot of enemy guys in a short time with the effect that some are killed but manny more are wounded and thus occupy yet another one or two of their compadres with attending to them for aid or removal.

I don’t see how there can be any question that the M-16 and the ammunition it fires are man killers, in fact, in theory and in intention. No soldier wants to be placed in a combat situation with a personal weapon that he can not rely on to render his opponent non-threatening. Any commander, at any level, who puts a soldier in such a situation is simply irresponsible and undeserving of the trust and loyalty that is the duty of a soldier toward his commander. In other words, the commander who does not give his people what they need to protect themselves forfeits his people’s loyalty and obedience.

The only reliable method of rendering an armed enemy non-threatening is to kill him, dead, now.

I’ve always thought it was interesting that the .223 (shot from an AR-15/M-16/mini-14 etc. was considered OK for warfare but not ok for deer hunting…

Of course, you can kill a deer with a .223, but the problem is that this round doesn’t “stop” the animal as effectively as the .30+ cal rifle rounds. Of course most hits with the .223 will kill, albeit slowly unless you make a good CNS or vital organ hit. So the round is considered “inhumane” for hunting deer by most authorities…

I’ve had a good exposure to guys that were perforated by .223’s. They came in two varieties: DOA and badly mutilated.Except for those that were creased by the round, anyone who takes a hit to the abdomen, thorax, or full-tickness proximal limb is pretty much AFU even if he lives.

The really big innovations incorporated into modern firearms have been developed incrementally over a couple of hundred years - rifled barrels, primer caps, smokeless powders, the self-obturating (breech sealing) cartridge case, self loading mechanisms etc.

Most of these were well established by the first couple of decades of the 20th century. Firearm design since then has consisted of variations on the same theme, and we’ve had two world wars to develop and pressure-test designs. It’s not too surprising that rifles developed in the post-world-war-2 decades are still contenders for the best infantry weapon. There have been a few developments in materials, particularly polymers, which have cut weight and improved reliability (the HK G36 and Steyr’s AUG are both good examples of this) and the bullpup layout has allowed overall length to be reduced, but nothing as earth-shattering as the self-enclosed cartridge has been introduced for the past 100 years.

The only real attempt to “think outside the box” in recent years was made by Heckler and Koch and Dynamit Nobel with the G11 and the caseless cartridge. I have vague memories of an old magazine article detailing a design spec for a rifle which could fire a three-round burst at >2500 rpm and land all three inside a 70 cm diameter circle at 600m, the idea being to increase the average grunt’s hit probability at longer ranges. This rate of fire could be more easily achieved by dispensing with the need for case-ejection, and so a solid block of propellant with a bullet stuck in one end and a primer cap stuck in the other was developed.
The G11 breech has to obturate mechanically, and there were problems with fresh shells “cooking off” when loaded into the hot breech and other reliability issues. According to H & K, the problems have been solved and the current prototype is a shit-hot, viable rifle of the future. I’ve read some pretty disparaging things from other sources, but it’s hard to tell if these are based upon real concerns or excessive conservatism.

Flechettes, or “nails with tails”, seem to be an attempt to put the tank-gun’s APFSDS ammo into a bullet. Their needle-like profile should give good penetration of body armour and light armour, and their length should make them tumble nicely within a soft target, essentially cutting a slot and maybe snapping in half for good measure. Nasty, but maybe a solution looking for a problem - current AP rounds do a good enough job vs. light armour.
The effect of the 5.56 NATO round is detailed in the following article:

"this full-metal-jacketed bullet travels point-forward in tissue for about 12cm after which it yaws to 90°, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure (groove around bullet midsection into which the cartridge neck is crimped). The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60 per cent of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path. The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. The degree of bullet fragmentation decreases with increased shooting distance (as striking velocity decreases), as shown in Fig. 5. At a shooting distance over about 100m the bullet breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments and, at over 200m, it no longer breaks"
From: “Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets.” Martin L. Fackler, International Defense Review, 59-64, 1/1989. (This article was available online at one point but gives a “cannot connect to server” error at the moment.)

The text refers to the older M193 bullet designed to be fired from the M16A1, and states that its tendency to hamburger the target was accidental and not initially understood. However, the current SS109 fired from the M16A2 does the same thing and I’m cynical enough to believe this feature may have been left in deliberately. Interestingly, the German NATO 7.62mm does the same thing but the US NATO 7.62mm doesn’t the jacket is thicker at the cannelure.

Just FYI, the History Channel is doing a Modern Marvels installment on the M-16 tonight at 9 pm (I think).

I was half asleep when I saw it, so maybe someone can confirm that.

Caseless rounds well preceeded the G11, but until recently have had some serious issues with consitencey of propellent, chemical stability, shelf-life, and so-on. My father also was part of the team that evaluated the G11 rifle for US service some time back (It’s cool being the child of a ballistician/human factors expert: You get to fire the new toys before anyone else! :slight_smile: ). He quotes one general as having a serious issue with the rifle’s name. G11 in German sounds suspiciously like ‘gay-elf’ to American ears. This general was quoted as saying “I’m not arming my boys with Gay Elves!”.

**
Flechettes also well preceeded APFSDS main-gun ammo. I’ve an example of a WWI flechette sitting on my desk. This one was for use against ground targets, by aircraft. It’s about 1.5" long, with a nominal caliber of .20, and comes complete with razor-sharp fins. There are also numerous attempts to create a sub-caliber flechette in the inter-war years. My father has a .30-06 round from the '20s that consists of a sabot and a .10 caliber flechette.

The problem revolves around the physics and art of bullet design. To make a small bullet stable, it needs a relatively high density, or high spin. Thus, most low-caliber bullets have thin jackets, if any at all. The SS109 (M855 5.56 Ball) has a small steel penetrator core in the tip, making it very likely to fragment into one major, and one or more minor parts. Again, the fragmentation isn’t intentional, but no-one’s doing anything about it, either.

Also from Fackler:

One needs be a little suspicious of Fackler’s intentions, as he’s repeatedly shown the shooting community that he has an agenda, and is willing to twist his science to support that agenda, but he’s still a deeply knowlegable source, and has conducted many, many studies. More from Fackler here.

Gelding
Actually, the need isn’t to kill the enemy now, it’s to stop him now. Whether or not your opponent survives the experince is less material. Out-right killing is the simplest was of stopping the enemy, but short of really heinous weapons, nothing man-portable is a sure killer. Hell, my father caught 3 .30 caliber bullets accross his waist and managed to walk to the extraction point, miles away (everyone else was busy either carrying more seriously(!) wounded, or busy trying to not die). One of the factors in choosing the .45cal M1911A1 was that it stopped people, not necessarily killed them. Mind you, the “stopping power” theory has fallen on hard times lately.

It’s also true that, barring a really ruthless and committed foe, wounding an enemy soldier is more valuable than killing him, as each wounded puts a greater strain on the enemy resouces.

Thanks for your post Tranquilis, I’m learning a lot in this thread. What is the sabot made from in your father’s 1920’s round? Do you know what its intended target was?

It’s cool being the child of a ballistician/human factors expert: You get to fire the new toys before anyone else!

JEALOUS!

One needs be a little suspicious of Fackler’s intentions, as he’s repeatedly shown the shooting community that he has an agenda

The only agenda I’ve picked up on is an excessive effort to discredit Marshall & Sanow’s one-shot stop data and low-penetration handgun loads. Is that what you’re talking about?

Loved the gay-elves story!

Comment on stopping power:
A .45 pistol round (or any pistol round for that matter) is incapable of knocking down a person. The simple reason for this is that if the round has enough energy to knock down it’s target at 100m, it’s also capable of knocking down the shooter. The force of a bullet is about the same as getting hit by a line drive (baseball). It may knock you over because it hurts a lot and you don’t expect it, but you won’t get knocked through a wall like in a John Woo film.

I suspect that M-16 fires a smaller, lighter bullet so it can sacrifice some range and ‘stopping power’ for less weight and more ammo.

Re; Stopping Power

Essentially there are two variables in the ability of a missile weapon to stop an opponent in his tracks, weight and speed. The old .45 had a relatively low speed ( I think about 900 feet per second at the muzzle) but a tremendous mass. At the short ranges for which it was intended to be used it did the job very well. At 20 yards and closer the effect was like receiving a full swing blow with an eight pound sledge hammer.

For comparison, the Civil War .58 cal. rifle-musket threw a slug weighing about one ounce at a muzzle velocity of less than 1000 ft/sec. Because the Civil War bullet was unjacketed, soft lead this may not be a fair comparison.

On the other hand the old 30/06 bullet had a much smaller mass but a much greater speed, I think about 2300 ft/sec at the muzzle. Because of its greater speed and flatter trajectory the rifle round was accurate at a greater distance and retained enough velocity to do real damage at greater ranges, out to 600 yds and beyond.

It is my understanding that the .223 round fired by the M-16 has an even higher muzzle velocity than the 30/06, which compensates for the lighter bullet. Frankly, I would just as soon not be shot with any of them.

Tranquilis is right about stopping power as against killing power. It is stopping power that is the first consideration. My comment is that the surest way to stop an enemy instantly is to kill him where he stands. General Sherman is reported to have said that the only good Indians he had ever seen were dead. By the same token, one might think that the only definitely stopped adversary is a dead adversary.

The sabot was wood, and IIRC, it was intended to be a low-recoil alternative to the standard .30-06 ball. In otherwords, the target was ‘people’.

:smiley:

Those, plus the RSI (Relative Stoping Index: Hatcher) people. The real issue is that Fackler has a very large ego to go with an excellent brain, and has a problem with anything or anyone that disagrees with his theories. The Marshall & Sanow data are purely empirical, but they’re carefull about making sure there are a large number of samples before releasing data on effectiveness. Fackler wants to employ a more controlled scientific approach, but the problem with that, as Fackler himself states (albeit rarely in the context of his arguments with other theories), is that there are way too many variables to handle in any but the most enourmous studies. The Marshall & Sanow info is far less ‘scientific’, but has the advantage of coming from the real world. They deliberately disregard multi-wound fights, feeling that those reflect the intrusion of other factors they can’t account for, and concentrate on what happens when a person is hit once by a bullet: Do they keep on coming, or do they stop? Me, I’m somewhere in between Marshall & Sanow, and Dr. Fackler.

To paraphrase Spavined Gelding, the only sure thing is death.