# Is The Magic Flute good or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663 "2002-08-13T10:46:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/1 "2002-08-13T10:46:51Z")
At my first college, I had to analyze some pieces from **The Magic Flute** as part of a music course. The teaching assistant growled and grumbled constantly about **TMF** supposedly being cheesy and sub-par, and about his frustation that the professor rejected his suggestion of **La Boheme**. I didn’t have a problem with **TMF**. As a young lass, I used to watch opera on public television with MamaRilch, and I had as fond memories of **TMF** as I did of any of the other performances we saw. I was somewhat out of my depth at this highbrow college, with fellow students who’d been classically educated, took a lot of _cul-cha_ for granted (some of them had **been** to the opera, not just watched fuzzy live feeds), and agreed with the TA. So I kept quiet. At the time, I didn’t have access to a video of the entire opera so I could judge it from the perspective of age 20. I do know that some people are just not crazy about Mozart, considering him to have been a self-indulgent hack. But not _everyone_ feels that way. So was the TA’s scorn for **TMF** justified? (Also bear in mind that this was a 100-level course. **La Boheme** might indeed be a superior work, but **TMF** might have been chosen for its simplicity.) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/2 "2002-08-13T11:33:34Z")
**TMF** tends to offend some people because of its fairy-tale plot elements and its Masonic imagery. But it also has some of Mozart’s most glorious music: the _Forspiel_; Papageno’s song, _Ich bin der Vogelfanger, Ja_; and the Queen of the Night’s entrance, _Die Holle Rache_ (those two O’s should have umlauts), which is one of the most challenging pieces in a coloratura soprano’s repertoire. The TA sounds like a pretentious tool who thinks culture snobbery shows the presence of intellect, although usually it shows the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/3 "2002-08-13T12:10:15Z")
_La Boheme_ a superior work? Uhhhh…Puccini superior to MOZART? He’s a fucking _tunesmith_! **Gobear** ’s right. Not only is this guy a pretentious tool, but he’s got his wires crossed. REAL pretentious tools, like me, only listen to Wagner und Mozart und other Chermanic Types when Opera Time comes around. Those Eye-ties are okay with a guitar in the back of a gondola, but they’re hopelessly out of their league when you offer them the subtlety and potential grandeur of a pit orchestra. (“Self indulgent hack?” You know people who call Mozart this? That’s the first time I’VE heard him called that.) (Oh, yeah, to answer the OP, _The Magic Flute_ is good. **Gobear** mentioned some of the choicest parts, and I also love the little Papageno/Papagena duet near the end. Utterly charming.) ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/4 "2002-08-13T12:31:40Z")
Nutshell - don’t always go by someone else’s opinion, even if you/they think they know more than you do. The **TA** sounds like an whiner with a bad case of sour grapes\*\*. When he gets a professorship , then HE can teach what HE wants to. Sounds like if the professor agreed with him, you’d have spent the whole semester analyzing Rudolfo’s and Mimi’s relationship. Back to **TMF** : it’s good music, it’s got a happy ending, and it’s a fun three hours at the opera. You want a good theatrical edition of **TMF**? Pick up the [Ingmar Bergman directed video (also on DVD)](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303595731/qid=1029240431/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-6684374-5904134) of **the Magic Flute** - okay, he’s taken some liberties with the order of the last act, and your eyes will water when you realize the performers rarely blink throughout the show, but there is some glorious singing (in Swedish), and Hakan Hagegard - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What a voice. \*\* **La Boheme** is pretty good, but give me Wagner any day. I love the Ring cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/5 "2002-08-13T12:37:01Z")
**the Magic Flute** is my favorite opera of all time. Just because the stage isn’t littered with dead bodies at the end doesn’t mean it’s “cheesy”. And anyone who calls Mozart a “hack” should be forced to listen to nothing but Andrew Lloyd Weber until his ears start bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/6 "2002-08-13T12:39:12Z")
Comparing Mozart and Puccini is like comparing Mozart and “Moulin Rouge.” Just because Mozart used his considerable talent on a folk-tinged story with Masonic overtones, while Puccini had no sense of humor whatsoever, doesn’t make Puccini a better composer. I once read a quote by a musicologist who said “Wagner is the Puccini of music,” which, when you think about it, says more about Puccini than Wagner. Can you tell I don’t like Puccini? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/7 "2002-08-13T12:47:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by h.sapiens \* > **I once read a quote by a musicologist who said “Wagner is the Puccini of music,” which, when you think about it, says more about Puccini than Wagner.** Isn’t that a little like saying “Shakespeare is the Moliere of drama” ? Or “Lewis Carroll is the Edward Lear of nonsense verse” ? ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/8 "2002-08-13T13:08:17Z")
I think he was implying that Puccini doesn’t even qualify as music, and Wagner, just barely. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/9 "2002-08-13T14:17:40Z")
Yo, yo, yo, let’s not be hatin’ on my boy, Giacomo, ya dig? Granted, Puccini is not on the Olympian level of pure genius that Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi occupy, but he is still one of the great operatic composers. It’s a pity that Puccini was born before the birth of the Broadway musical because he would have given Sondheim, or a step down, Kander and Ebb, a run for his money when it comes to expressing emotional states through music. Take, for example, _Vissi d’Arte_ (I have lived for art). The singer, Tosca, has been told by the evil police chief, Scarpia, that she must sleep with him or he will let her lover be shot for treason. The action onstage stops as Tosca pours out her anguish to God > [@](#): > > (I’m translating this from memory, so bear with any inaccuracies) > I have lived for art > I have lived for love > I have done no harm to a living soul > With sincere faith I have come to your holy tabernacle > I have dressed your altar with flowers > Why, O God, have you rewarded me thus? Not only is it a piece of high drama, a bereft woman on the horns of a hideous dilemma, asking God why He has forsaken her, but the music is deliriously beautiful. Or what about _Un Bel Di_ (One Beautiful Day), from **Madame Butterfly** , in which the deluded Cio Cio San, thinking that her lover, Lt. Pinkerton, loves her and will fulfill his promise to return to her, fantasizes about a filament of smoke on the horizon, then the ship coming into view. She won’t know what to say, but, it doesn’t matter, for she and Pinkerton will be united, forever. I defy anyone to listen to that last line, “io consicura fede l’aspetto,” and not weep. But, of course, when Pinkerton does come back, he does sow with his American wife, and Ciocio San realizes that she was never more than a piece of tail to him, so she gives her baby to the American wife and commits suicide. So you gots to be givin’ Puccini his props. but he ain’t no Mozart. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/10 "2002-08-13T14:17:50Z")
**gobear** : Ooh! The second and third pieces you mentioned are some of the ones I copied for my own enjoyment! And the ending of the “hm hm hm hm” piece…it sounds so silly to call it that, but the “auf wiedersehn” ending is beautifully poignant. Yes, many people at that school were like him. A lot of one-upmanship and been-there-done-that. **Uke** : “REAL pretentious tools, like me, only listen to Wagner und Mozart und other Chermanic Types when Opera Time comes around. Those Eye-ties are okay with a guitar in the back of a gondola, but they’re hopelessly out of their league when you offer them the subtlety and potential grandeur of a pit orchestra.” Heehee! And I don’t remember where, exactly, I heard the “self-indulgent hack” assessment. Probably from these people. **screech** : Okay, I’ll do that! But…Ingmar Bergman? Is it all grainy black and white long shots of people on hillsides? Does the Queen carry a scythe and Papageno have to play chess to get his padlock off? Wagner/Puccini: LOL! And incidentally, many of these elite people **did** like ALW. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/11 "2002-08-13T14:34:10Z")
The Bergman film is pretty straightforward for him, a color film of a stage production. One of my favorite parts is the overture, a continuous close-up of the face of a young girl in the audience, listening intently to the music. It is a little wierd to hear it in Swedish, though. ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/12 "2002-08-13T14:46:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > **…screech: Okay, I’ll do that! But…Ingmar Bergman? Is it all grainy black and white long shots of people on hillsides? Does the Queen carry a scythe and Papageno have to play chess to get his padlock off?..** Nope, nope and nope. But it does have a great shot during intermission of the Queen of the Night standing under a “No Smoking” sign while smoking a cigarette. Talk about staying in character. [Obligatory link to Florence Foster Jenkins recording of the Queen of the Night aria.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003F97/qid=1029249319/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-6684374-5904134) WARNING: Pitch is an area, not a place. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/13 "2002-08-13T15:01:26Z")
I COULD write a lengthy spiel explaining why I love “The Magic Flute,” but what for? To the OP, all I can say is, LISTEN to a CD of “The Magic Flute,” or ATTEND a production, and decide for yourself whether it’s delightful or horrible. That’s the only intelligent, mature way to reach a valid conclusion. Sure, I COULD tell you that the TA is a jerk (and he may well be!), but really, why should MY opinion matter more to you than the TA’s? If you love “The Magic Flute,” why would you stop just because I think it’s piffle? Or, if you hate it, why would a rave review from ME change your mind? - When you take a music course, you have an opportunity to listen to all sorts of things you ordinarily wouldn’t. If a professor or TA inspires you to listen to a composer you’d never heard of before, that’s wonderful… but once you’ve heard it, if you hate it, DON’T keep listening to it to impress the professor! Listen to music because you love it, NOT because you think you’re SUPPOSED to love it, or because someone “in the know” tells you you should. Conversely, if a piece of music moves you, don’t let anyone tell you it doesn’t or that it shouldn’t. Personally, I found Gounod’s “Faust” inspiring… but if it strikes you as cheesey, don’t embrace it to impress me with your good taste. Personally, I find “La Boheme” laughably hokey… but if you cry when Mimi dies, don’t let ME make you feel embarrassed about that. I laughed out loud many times last time I saw “The Magic Flute,” but you may not find it as funny as I do. It doesn’t follow that one of us MUST be right and the other MUST be wrong. My advice is, listen to music, and let the music work on you. The music is a success if it moves you as the composer intended, even if some snooty critic tells you it shouldn’t. - Don’t ask me (or your TA or anyone at the SDMB) “Is this good?” Check it out for yourself, and then you tell US if it’s good. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/14 "2002-08-13T15:24:56Z")
astorian: Hear, Hear! ---
**Author:** ![Alto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Alto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alto)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/15 "2002-08-13T17:11:58Z")
I adore The Magic Flute. But have you ever noticed that a lot of it doesn’t have any words? Maybe that’s your TA’s problem. We have (bear with me, I’m working from memory): Papageno’s aria: Hmm hmm hmm hmm… Queen of the Night’s aria: Ha ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah… Queen of the Night’s other aria: Ha-a-a-a-a-a-a… Papageno/Monostatos duet: Hoo, hoo./Hoo, hoo. Enchanted slaves’ dance: La la la la la la… Papageno/Papagena duet: Pa, pa pa pa… ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/16 "2002-08-13T22:15:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*To the OP, all I can say is, LISTEN to a CD of “The Magic Flute,” or ATTEND a production, and decide for yourself whether it’s delightful or horrible. That’s the only intelligent, mature way to reach a valid conclusion. > > Sure, I COULD tell you that the TA is a jerk (and he may well be!), but really, why should MY opinion matter more to you than the TA’s? If you love “The Magic Flute,” why would you stop just because I think it’s piffle? Or, if you hate it, why would a rave review from ME change your mind? \*\* **astorian** , it’s like this. I took the music course in 1990. I liked **TMF** enough to copy most (not all) of it onto a cassette, along with selections from the St. Matthew Passion, which we also analyzed, onto a cassette. I treasured it for years, then around last spring, I went to play it and only heard muffled rumbling. Unwilling to simply toss it, but knowing I couldn’t afford a replacement CD, I put it back in the rack, maybe thinking it would fix itself. Yesterday, Friend wanted to borrow another cassette. While retrieving it, my eye fell on the wounded **TMF/StMP** mix. I explained the dilemma, and Friend spotted the problem. He readjusted the head thingy (you know, the fuzzy square on a copper strip) with a tweezers, and the cassette played! Oh joy, oh rapture unforeseen! (G&S ref ;)) After almost two years, it sounded better to me than ever before! But after singing along with Papageno’s first aria, I suddenly stopped mid-leap, struck by doubt. “I like **Titanic** , too. I don’t agree with the people who say that’s cheesy, but so many do…Maybe this really is middle-of-the-road junk that’s only accessable to people who don’t know from Real Music…” Friend doesn’t know from opera at all, but said pretty much what you said, plus “ **How** long ago did you take this course?..Well then, fuck that TA! He’s not here now!”. \*\* > [@](#): > > Listen to music because you love it, NOT because you think you’re SUPPOSED to love it, or because someone “in the know” tells you you should. Conversely, if a piece of music moves you, don’t let anyone tell you it doesn’t or that it shouldn’t. > > \ > > It doesn’t follow that one of us MUST be right and the other MUST be wrong. My advice is, listen to music, and let the music work on you. The music is a success if it moves you as the composer intended, even if some snooty critic tells you it shouldn’t.\*\* You’re right; you’re totally right. Also, you’ve reminded me of an epiphany I had shortly after I left that school. Some of you may have heard of or seen a movie called **Metropolitan**. Well, I saw it in January of 1991, and I was blown away. I remember sprinting to the bus stop afterwards, oblivious to the light drizzle, repeating dialogue from the film and already clearing my schedule for a second viewing. Then I got back to campus (at my _second_ college; I hadn’t made the cut to continue at the first), and hit a wall of scorn. “You mean that movie that was so bad we WALKED OUT?” “You liked that piece of shit! It was so stupid!” “Why would anyone make a movie about a bunch of college students sitting around talking?” said the college students sitting around talking. Well, I couldn’t believe **them**. I’d just seen 90 minutes of dialogue and byplay that could have been a flipping **documentary** of the _first_ college, and these clowns at the second college rejected it because…I don’t know, because there were no sex scenes? Finally, one girl “proved” the worthlessness of **Metropolitan** by asking me, “But do you know how much MONEY the Playhouse lost by booking it for a whole month?” Something shifted in me. “I don’t care if I’m the only person on earth who likes it. I like it. You can’t stop me from liking it. When it comes out on video, I’m going to own it, and I’ll watch it a hundred million times if I want to.” \*\* > [@](#): > > Don’t ask me (or your TA or anyone at the SDMB) “Is this good?” Check it out for yourself, and then you tell US if it’s good. \*\* I do think it’s good! My only concern was whether it was regarded as substantive, or if it was the equivalent of Peter, Paul and Mary (not real folk singers) or the one song that a band dumbs down so they can get radio play, while everything else of theirs is much more hardcore. I’d still **like** it even if it was dumbed down, but I was just curious. Anyway, it had to have **some** redeeming qualities, or the professor wouldn’t have assigned it. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/17 "2002-08-14T01:43:07Z")
So what’s stopping you from going and listening to Don Giovanni, The Marriage of Figaro, and Cosa fan Tutte? You already know you like The Magic Flute, check out some of his other operas, see for yourself how it compares. Borrow discs from the library if you don’t want to make the monetary investment. ---
**Author:** ![gooti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eb8c5e/32.png) [@gooti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/18 "2002-08-14T03:31:23Z")
I took an actual opera class in college (yes, I had to audition and sing) and my FAVORITE opera is **TMF**. I had SO much fun performing that. Mind you, I was just one of the Three Spirits, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it. One can’t help but be in awe of the Queen of the Night and dance around like a poof during the Papageno/Papagena duet. If you like Mozart at all, you’ll like **TMF** , IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/19 "2002-08-14T04:44:14Z")
**Uke** , I tried to respond earlier but I got “server not available”. All right, I’ll do that! **gooti** : That is awesome! ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663/20 "2002-08-14T07:56:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Hakan Hagegard - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What a voice. That movie/opera made me a big fan of his. _Sigh_. I have been a big classical music fan (though not extremely well-educated in it) and I love “The Magic Flute”. I first saw it during a long 24-hour Filmex marathon. The theme of this marathon was science fiction and fantasy. We saw many great films, but most of the people in the audience were fading fast (or fast asleep) when “The Magic Flute” came on, at about 5 am in the morning. (I think the marathon was maybe 18 hours in at this point, and we’d been there _since the beginning._) It seemed like I was the only person awake (though I am sure there were others admiring the film too). I was enchanted with it, but in my exhausted state, my perception of reality was—how shall I say it?—somewhat compromised. I felt it was all a bit too real. So, when Papageno was pitiously saying how alone he was, and beseeching any woman to take him (or he’d do himself in) I wanted to leap to my feet and say, “Don’t do it Papageno! _I’ll_ take you! Don’t hang yourself!!!” I mean, I almost did stood up. That’s how tired (yet enchanted) I was by the whole story. It’s a wonderful, wonderful opera. I put the soundtrack (the Ingmar Bergman version) on my Christmas list that year. I didn’t know if it existed, but my dad searched high and low to find it for me. It’s a prized possession. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-magic-flute-good-or-not/123663.md?page=2)