# Is the military really that bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006 "2005-11-28T03:48:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/41 "2005-11-29T01:15:55Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Hey, I slammed the Military as an orgnaization. I made it clear that I wasn’t trying to attack the people who serve. Did you think that people would only say “No, nothing at all?”. > > If I violated the bounds of what’s acceptable for IMHO, I hope the moderator will give me a firm tap on the shoulder. jrfranchi, I notice that I, personnaly am getting slammed quit a lot, rather than what I said. Yeah, it is _that_ bad, and I gave some reasons. > > English is not my native language, but I think that might have been a question. You seem to think the military is evil. The military is nor evil. Sometimes the government that directs the military is evil, but not the military. You said no war is just, how about WWII, was the US unjust to fight the Evil known as Nazis? Especially after their ally attacked us unannounced? Should we have sat back and allowed the German’s to slaughter all the Jews, Gypsy and anyone else they disliked? If anything I think it is a horrible shame that we didn’t go to war earlier. Was Clinton intervention in Kosovo evil? I have friends and family that helped end the ethnic cleansing that was attempted. Or do you mean the military is inherently evil because the current war is an unjust war? Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/42 "2005-11-29T01:18:11Z")
More: The US currently has an all-volunteer Military. This is something to take pride in by itself. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/43 "2005-11-29T01:39:12Z")
A couple of salient points, if you don’t mind: 1. Entering as an officer: That’s not always the case for those with a college degree but no ROTC. Usually, I’ve seen such persons enter (a) as Enlisted with no guarantee of OCS, (b) Enlisted with a guarantee of OCS, or © direct commissioning (very few). For those who were accepted to OCS, not all graduated the OCS and thus remained Enlisted. 2. Deliberate humiliation. That sort of thing is known as hazing and is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/44 "2005-11-29T01:46:03Z")
Wars perpetuate future wars, peaceful sollutions must be found. A war can be fought, for good reasons, and it can save more lives than it takes, but that doesn’t make it “Just” and it doesn’t make it “Right”. There’s always plenty of reasons to kill, burn and destroy. Religion, teritory, “he was looking at me funny”, what have you. Every day at school, I see people proudly displaying posters and t-shirts with Che Guevera’s picture, and Che was part of the revolution that put a death warrant on my Grandfather, and killed members of my family (decades before I was born, but still). People were either enemies of the revolution, or participants. There was a false dichotomy in effect. “You are either with us, or against us!”. People either had to turn against their friends and neighbors, their fellow human beings, or be victims themselves. Being part of the bloody, violent revolution was “patriotism” and being against it made you the enemy. Everyone in Cuba was denied the freedom to _chose_ whether to be involved in the war or not. There are apolgists who say “It was a nessecary war”, “Cuba is better off without the Batista corruption, and American capitolism”. Hogwash. That is too similar to the United States military for comfort. It is a volunteer military, true, so the parralel isn’t blatant. But, it is an organization that aggressively recruits young people, pumps them full of false expectations about what the experiance will be like, and then asks them to kill and die for political causes they are not allowed to question. The military organization keeps hammering away at the rest of the world with the bodies of American Youth as a club. It’s tolerated because we’re convinced that need it. The Military perpetuates the idea that a person’s (read soldier’s) responsibility for their actions can be divested onto a higher authority. In some militaries, that higher authority is the leader of the country. In some militiaries, that figure is “god”. Ultimately, the soldier’s responsability lies with themselves. “Do I want to contribute to this war/action/martial law which I think is wrong?” is not a question they permitted to ask. They are asked to devote their lvies to a war which may not even have been started yet, for which their homeland could be entirely at fault. That does a great disservice to the soldiers and civilians alike. Destroying freedom is evil. If the U.S. military gave soldiers the freedom to lay down their arms and go home when the war makes one or more gigantic segues, e.g. 9/11 - Taliban - Saddam, then I’d have hard time condeming it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/45 "2005-11-29T01:57:50Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Wars perpetuate future wars, peaceful sollutions must be found. A war can be fought, for good reasons, and it can save more lives than it takes, but that doesn’t make it “Just” and it doesn’t make it “Right”. There’s always plenty of reasons to kill, burn and destroy. Religion, teritory, “he was looking at me funny”, what have you. > > Every day at school, I see people proudly displaying posters and t-shirts with Che Guevera’s picture, and Che was part of the revolution that put a death warrant on my Grandfather, and killed members of my family (decades before I was born, but still). People were either enemies of the revolution, or participants. There was a false dichotomy in effect. “You are either with us, or against us!”. People either had to turn against their friends and neighbors, their fellow human beings, or be victims themselves. Being part of the bloody, violent revolution was “patriotism” and being against it made you the enemy. Everyone in Cuba was denied the freedom to _chose_ whether to be involved in the war or not. There are apolgists who say “It was a nessecary war”, “Cuba is better off without the Batista corruption, and American capitolism”. Hogwash. > > That is too similar to the United States military for comfort. It is a volunteer military, true, so the parralel isn’t blatant. But, it is an organization that aggressively recruits young people, pumps them full of false expectations about what the experiance will be like, and then asks them to kill and die for political causes they are not allowed to question. The military organization keeps hammering away at the rest of the world with the bodies of American Youth as a club. It’s tolerated because we’re convinced that need it. > > The Military perpetuates the idea that a person’s (read soldier’s) responsibility for their actions can be divested onto a higher authority. In some militaries, that higher authority is the leader of the country. In some militiaries, that figure is “god”. Ultimately, the soldier’s responsability lies with themselves. “Do I want to contribute to this war/action/martial law which I think is wrong?” is not a question they permitted to ask. They are asked to devote their lvies to a war which may not even have been started yet, for which their homeland could be entirely at fault. That does a great disservice to the soldiers and civilians alike. Destroying freedom is evil. > > If the U.S. military gave soldiers the freedom to lay down their arms and go home when the war makes one or more gigantic segues, e.g. 9/11 - Taliban - Saddam, then I’d have hard time condeming it. So even in an unjust war like the current one, we (the USA) are not destroying freedom but trying to force people to have freedom. The war was founded under false pretenses and has been executed poorly, but still we are trying to increase freedom. How do say the US military is evil. It was not the Army or Navy or Air Force or Marines that started this war it was Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. If you want to say they are evil, I will be forced to largely agree. Our volunteers are not ignorant and they should know what they are getting into. I had a fairly good idea. I did not enjoy it but I am happy I served. I did my duty and got out. As far a laying down arms and going home, this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Maybe they can ride home on some unicorns while they at it. Any other fairy tales you are wishing for? Jim ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/46 "2005-11-29T01:58:21Z")
Sorry, I was typing a reply while you were posting. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > BWAHHH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAAAHHHHHHH!! **Imaginal** , you will get more humiliation and grueling training by pledging a frat. Your frat buddies won’t help you pay for college, either. They’d probably just throw up on you or something, and then out comes the paddle . . . I meant that basic, and further training, is meant to be deliberate humiliation. as for frat boys, I’m not even going to try to defend that. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Now if you excuse me, my–ahem–guardian angel is telling me to go do pushups and scream at hippies in a disciplined manner. > > By the way, the pay’s not that bad when you consider the GI Bill and the fact that you get three hots and a cot plus COLA, plus off base housing if you’re married. For being a job where you can get killed, and have no recourse to civilian law if they do something to you, it sucks. You could always make the point that civilian law is for sissies, and that real men and women don’t need no stinking rule of law, hoo-haw. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > And college money. And physical fitness. And the chance to travel all over the world, see beautiful places, and blow them up. Plus chicks dig guys in uniform, you know. Let me tell you, if you put down the military on your application, you get noticed. Oh, and specialized training. And the comraderie. Plus, it pisses longhairs the _fuck_ off, which is pretty cool in and of itself. > > Mercenaries fight for money. U.S. military fights for U.S. interests, as varied as they may be. Believe me, if we wanted to fight for money, we’d be pro wrestlers–much more money there, plus you can wear spandex and _still_ no one would have the guts to laugh at you. By the way, on this planet, it’s spelled “motivation” and while it _can_ be used in the plural, most of us use it in the singular. Actually, on _this_ planet, english isn’t the majority language, but I digress. If your spelling and grammar usage are both perfect, please, cast the first stone. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > I resent your slander. It also produces orphans and flaming debris. And if I had tried to fuel my Deuce and a half with blood, those guys at the motor pool would have beaten my ass. This is where I said “The miltiary is fueled by blood, and produces nothing but corpses” (I’m a newbie. One day, I’ll be able to manage this with seemless grace, but that day is not today.) Thanks, now my ears are bleeding. Someone needs to stop using Babel Fish as a spell checker. [/QUOTE] Ok, that was a joke right? I wrote this in english. That was intended to mean just what it says. Sometimes people do the wrong things for right reasons. In theatre, that’s tragedy. In life, that’s what we all do before 9 a.m. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/47 "2005-11-29T01:59:55Z")
Call me a hippy if you’d like (I really won’t care), but I dislike the military in general. It’s an all-volunteer force. By joining any branch of the military, you agree to do as you’re told - generally speaking, this means enforcing the will of the government. I disagree with a lot of the government’s actions (both past and current), and I also disagree with some of the military’s policies (e.g., taking and using information from public schools for recruitment tactics without the student/parents permision, and dismissing otherwise entirely-qualified people on the basis of sexual orientation). If someone joins the military, they either in some way are willing to associate themselves with those policies, or they joined up in utter ignorance. I personally find both of those options appalling. Ergo: I am not a fan of the military. Before the accusations come, I am in no way saying that members of the military are bad people, morally corrupt, or anything like that. I don’t advocate violence towards them, I don’t go and throw garbage at soldiers, or anything like that. I simply regard them as (actively or passively) supporting ideals I strongly disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/48 "2005-11-29T02:02:06Z")
[Apparently, the Navy kicks ass](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42609) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/49 "2005-11-29T02:06:06Z")
Are you aware that the military is also involved in rescues at sea? No really. I was on the USS Ranger and in 1986 we rescued the crew of a Freighter that had an out of control fire. Our small escorts sent men aboard to control the fire and we evac’d the crew, the injured and sadly the dead to our ship as we had the best medical facilities within a 1000 miles. Are you aware that the military also does research; in fact NASA is largely military. The Pegasus was a hydrofoil research vessel. The Artic base maintained by the US military (operation Deep Freeze) had more of a research than military mission. Jim ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/50 "2005-11-29T02:07:36Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Our volunteers are not ignorant and they should know what they are getting into. I had a fairly good idea. I did not enjoy it but I am happy I served. I did my duty and got out. > As far a laying down arms and going home, this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Maybe they can ride home on some unicorns while they at it. Any other fairy tales you are wishing for? > Jim Ok, I’m going to say this clearly, and bulleted statements which cannot possibly be taken out of context. (Oh no, someone out there is going to take that as a challenge). 1. I am not asserting that the soldiers in the U.S. miltiary are evil. I don’t know them all, how the heck could I judge them personnaly? 2. I _am_ asserting that the U.S. military is evil. That is completely seperate from condeming the soldiers. The resonsability gets passed up, down and around, and the bull starts running around in the China shop, and noone has any control over the situation. At best, the U.S. military is a rabid dog that just keeps biting people. It’s the dog’s owner, the politicians in this analogy, who are to blame. However, the miltiary is composed of people who retain the ability to make choices, no matter how much they are told they cannot. 3. What’s so silly about soldiers laying down their arms and going home? That’s the only thing that prevented Alexander the “Great” from conquering the rest of Asia. His soldiers got sick and tired of the war, and called it off. The Christmas day peace of 1914 nearly stopped the war in its tracks. This sort of thing happened more often in history than you might think. The politicians really hate it when a peace breaks out. ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/51 "2005-11-29T02:13:03Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Are you aware that the military is also involved in rescues at sea? No really. I was on the USS Ranger and in 1986 we rescued the crew of a Freighter that had an out of control fire. Our small escorts sent men aboard to control the fire and we evac’d the crew, the injured and sadly the dead to our ship as we had the best medical facilities within a 1000 miles. > Are you aware that the military also does research; in fact NASA is largely military. The Pegasus was a hydrofoil research vessel. The Artic base maintained by the US military (operation Deep Freeze) had more of a research than military mission. > > Jim Yes, I am aware of this fact. In my first post on this thread, I mentioned that in the thrid paragraph. Scroll up and read it there. Quoting one’s self is an academic no-no. It would be better, IMHO, if there were more rescue/relief programs with those kinds of resources which aren’t affilited with the military. NASA’s _personnel_ are often ex-military. The NASA program has its own budget. It’s a seperate entity. I’m trying to make it clear that when I say “The Military” I mean it in the same way as if I might say “Microsoft”. I’m talking about the organization, not every single person in it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/52 "2005-11-29T02:19:06Z")
For **some** people, it is “all that bad”. For some people it’s pretty good. For some people it’s so-so. For instance, I learned from the Army that I was likely the wrong man for them, temperament-wise. But both they and I could take it and do what had to be done until it was over without causing one another any apparent damage, and parted on cordial terms. Never felt unjustly abused or exploited and even enjoyed some of what I did. As **Rodgers01** mentions, the population sample has a lot to do with the response you get – and it’s not necessarily a matter of “hippies”, either, but of people who are convinced that their conclusion about the facts is THE reasonable one. (BTW, people, some reactions here seem to presuppose it’s a universally derogatory term, when it may be merely descriptive – there were many fine and decent hippies wandering the wilderness, in the day) ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/53 "2005-11-29T02:28:38Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Great, just what we need, more narrow people. Actually if you read what I wrote I said narrow your focus. What I meant by that - thanks for asking and not just jumping to an asinine conclusion - was that many people spend a lot of time and money on courses and university before really figuring out what they want to do and find themselves three years later with a degree they can’t really use and no closer to knowing what they want to do, not to mention heavy debt. Sometimes the military can help that, and give them some experience, self-discipline (which is never a bad thing, no matter what you go into) and money besides. It’s not for everyone - otherwise everyone would make it through basic, and we **know** that’s not true, but for some it’s a really good fit, and something worth checking out. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/54 "2005-11-29T02:32:52Z")
Well, I think the OP now has some further information regarding why some people look askance at the military. Of course, the thread has now been hijacked to debate the merits and qualities of the military, in general, and the effect it has on its members in particular. I see no particularly good reason to shut off this discussion (since it does demonstrate the attitudes that provide an answer to the OP’s question), HOWEVER, everyone will now recall that this is not the **Pit** and you will refrain from further _ad hominem_s and related tactics that are more intended to express displeasure with other posters than to actually address the issue under discussion. No one has crossed the line–yet–so let us see that no one does. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/55 "2005-11-29T02:35:34Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Yes, I am aware of this fact. In my first post on this thread, I mentioned that in the thrid paragraph. Scroll up and read it there. Quoting one’s self is an academic no-no. It would be better, IMHO, if there were more rescue/relief programs with those kinds of resources which aren’t affilited with the military. > > NASA’s _personnel_ are often ex-military. The NASA program has its own budget. It’s a seperate entity. I’m trying to make it clear that when I say “The Military” I mean it in the same way as if I might say “Microsoft”. I’m talking about the organization, not every single person in it. I still insist the US military is not evil; it is up to the politicians to commit evil with it. As strong as our military is, it has never taken control of the government. This speaks to it not being evil. The military does not make policy and is overseen by Congress and of course the POTUS. They don’t declare wars and have avoided starting wars to justify their existence. (They leave that up to the CIA from what I can see). I don’t accept your declaration of evil. Maybe your military is evil, ours is not. Jim ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/56 "2005-11-29T02:37:29Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > See, I’m with Spiff there. I can understand signing on for the duration of a certain war, or a certain task. Signing for six years, no matter you’re asked to do has terrifying consequences for the people you’re assigned to subdue, and for the soldiers themselves. When the National gaurd beat and hosed civil rights protestors in the 60’s, I’m sure more than one member of the National Guard thought that beating up people for speaking up was a bad idea, but what could they do about it? It jepordizes everyone’s freedom. I was under the impression that certain orders were illegal and thus should not be obeyed. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/57 "2005-11-29T02:38:23Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > I meant that basic, and further training, is meant to be deliberate humiliation. Yeah, I know what you meant. You obviously know absolutely nothing about basic training, AIT, or special training. A humbling experience != humiliation. > [@](#): > > For being a job where you can get killed, and have no recourse to civilian law if they do something to you, it sucks. You could always make the point that civilian law is for sissies, and that real men and women don’t need no stinking rule of law, hoo-haw. Our rights were curtailed, not obliterated. We still have access to legal council. We also have rights as soldiers, such as the right not to get beaten or hazed. Civilian law is not for sissies, it’s for civilians. Once again, this is a choice we make on our own. And it’s hoo-AHH, not hoo-hah. > [@](#): > > This is where I said “The miltiary is fueled by blood, and produces nothing but corpses” (I’m a newbie. One day, I’ll be able to manage this with seemless grace, but that day is not today.) There’s a graceful way to say “The military is fueled by blood?” > [@](#): > > 1. I _am_ asserting that the U.S. military is evil. That is completely seperate from condeming the soldiers. The resonsability gets passed up, down and around, and the bull starts running around in the China shop, and noone has any control over the situation. At best, the U.S. military is a rabid dog that just keeps biting people. It’s the dog’s owner, the politicians in this analogy, who are to blame. However, the miltiary is composed of people who retain the ability to make choices, no matter how much they are told they cannot. A rabid dog? Biting people like, oh, say, the British Redcoats, Japan’s Imperial Army, the Nazi’s, Saddam Hussein, and people like that? Some people need biting, dude. I’m not saying that we’re perfect or that the machine never ever screws up, but usually, we’re the guys putting the rabid dog down before it mauls the kids. > [@](#): > > 1. What’s so silly about soldiers laying down their arms and going home? That’s the only thing that prevented Alexander the “Great” from conquering the rest of Asia. His soldiers got sick and tired of the war, and called it off. The Christmas day peace of 1914 nearly stopped the war in its tracks. This sort of thing happened more often in history than you might think. Alexander’s troops did not “call the war off,” they mutinied, and they mutinied because they were demoralized and exhausted, not because they wanted peace. By the way, why do you put “the Great” in quotes? Alexander conquered quite a bit of the civilized world in his day; that’s one guy who earned his moniker. As far as the Christmas day peace? That lasted for a day. In 1914. In a war that lasted until 1917. I don’t think it nearly stopped anything. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/58 "2005-11-29T02:41:23Z")
**ImaginalDisc** BTW, your English is excellent and most impressive. I could not hope to post in Spanish, while I strongly disagree with your point of view, I respect your right to it and have some hopes to change it a little. None of this should be taken as a personnel dislike. Welcome to the boards, I hope you stay. Through dissenting opinions I think we all learn. Jim ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/59 "2005-11-29T03:21:41Z")
jrfranchi, don’t give me too much credit. English isn’t my native tounge, but it’s my adopted tounge, and I speak it better than I do spanish. I made that choice when I was a kid because speaking english well seemed to be a lot useful than speaking spanish well. Linty, humbling experiance/humiliation is matter of degree. I have many friends who are ex-military (because, guess what, I don’t burn soldiers in effigy!). They describe their experiances as somewhere between being “totaly awesome” and “so bad, that it caused my battle buddy to commit suicide with her M-16 while I lay next to her, in a ditch at the firing range”. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Our rights were curtailed, not obliterated. We still have access to legal council. We also have rights as soldiers, such as the right not to get beaten or hazed. Civilian law is not for sissies, it’s for civilians. Once again, this is a choice we make on our own. > > And it’s hoo-AHH, not hoo-hah. Not going to debae the merits of military law. I don’t think it provides you with sufficent recourse to refusal to obey illegal orders, amoung other things. We can agree to disagree. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Quote: > This is where I said “The miltiary is fueled by blood, and produces nothing but corpses” (I’m a newbie. One day, I’ll be able to manage this with seemless grace, but that day is not today.) > There’s a graceful way to say “The military is fueled by blood?” No, I mean that there’s got to be a graceful way to sling html-style code to nest quotes inside other quotes like a russian dolls without losing the meaning of each phrase. As for what I said, “The military if fueled by blood” is as tactfully as I care to put that phrase. Anything else would be disengenous, since that is how I feel. I stand corrected about “hoo-AHH”. > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > A rabid dog? Biting people like, oh, say, the British Redcoats, Japan’s Imperial Army, the Nazi’s, Saddam Hussein, and people like that? Some people need biting, dude. I’m not saying that we’re perfect or that the machine never ever screws up, but usually, we’re the guys putting the rabid dog down before it mauls the kids. I must respectfully disagree. The colonies particpated in six wars before the American Revolution, debating the morality of which would go beyond the scope of this thread, in they were merely pawns. Thereafter, the U.S. military was used to commit genocide, used to fight off the Brittish _again_, used to install puppet dictatorships in foreign countries, used as a puppet in Imperialism time and again (sometimes driving by yellow journalism) used in a complex political shell game to appropriate half of Mexico, some more genocide, fight two world wars, fight a handful of brushfire/proxy wars, used to conduct a war that has been deemed a war crime (Nicaragua)…and I don’t want to even start on the last twenty years. In looking at the history of the actions the United States Military has has under taken, I can find very few instances where it was most definately the white hat. It’s strange that you mention the red coats. You see no parrelel between the Brittish position in the American revolution and our current position in the Middle East? This time, the Red Coats salute the American Flag. Lambasting the Red Coats, individually, as the bad guys in the American Revolution on the one hand, and then excusing the American soldiers of wrong doing for particpating in an controversial war on the other is…inconsistant. I don’t think either groups of people are evil. They have more in common with eachother than you might think. Which brings to to the last part… > [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Alexander’s troops did not “call the war off,” they mutinied, and they mutinied because they were demoralized and exhausted, not because they wanted peace. By the way, why do you put “the Great” in quotes? Alexander conquered quite a bit of the civilized world in his day; that’s one guy who earned his moniker. > > As far as the Christmas day peace? That lasted for a day. In 1914. In a war that lasted until 1917. I don’t think it nearly stopped anything. Mutiny, call for peace, they were sick of fighting a war that seemed to do nothing but fuel one meglomaniac’s delusions of grandeur. I call him “great” in quotes because I think, IMHO, that history has been too kind to a guy who took it upon himself to take over the world. “I want to take over the world” isn’t generaly a phrase we associate with good people, is it? As for the Christmas Truce being no big deal, I think any time two groups of soldiers shrug off as much propaganda as they were doped up on, and take time to bury the dead, and treat each other like human beings is a monumentous occasion. Incidentally, the last veteran who participated in the Christmas Truce died just last week. [http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=2279822005](http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=2279822005) There was a solider who was there, but didn’t participate, Adolf Hitler. Yes, the war dragged on for much longer. Partly because the politicians and generals went to a lot of trouble to forbid any such fraternization, and to threaten strict enforcement. Ok, that was much longer than I had anticpated. I’m not hoping to just say “X is so, because I say so”, and I know that denouncing a major social institution isn’t a matter that most people take lightly. I only stated my opion, with support, because I would the OP hear a dissenting opinion that isn’t groundless. Speaking as someone who would have been born in Castro’s Cuba (if at all) rather than in the United States, I’ll say that the U.S. is a pretty nice place to live, and I appreciate the freedom to discuss this issue, I just would feel terrfied to have the United States for a neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006/60 "2005-11-29T03:36:52Z")
Just one last anedote before I go to sleep: Concerning > [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Not going to debae the merits of military law. I don’t think it provides you with sufficent recourse to refusal to obey illegal orders, amoung other things. We can agree to disagree. I was in the Navy and we were going to have a nice celebration of Martin Luther King Day. Then I discovered that the nut job Televangelist from the Crystal Cathedral was going to lead a prayer and they expected all of us to attend. I went to my Division Officer and told him I could not participate as it violated my religious beliefs (lack there of) I find the huge glowing cross and the Televangelist to be offensive to my belief. He ordered me to attend. I said you are violating the constitution. He said what part of the constitution? (Keep in mind this somewhat ignorant man, who was in charge of over 120 men was probably all of 24 years of age and I was only 19). I had to go to legal to request a copy of our Bill of Rights. When the Lt Cmdr who was the legal officer heard me explaining to his PN what I needed and why, he called me in. I felt nervous but stood by my guns. The Legal Officer told me to return to LT JG Foster and tell him to call the Legal Officer ASAP. I went back to the E-Div office and told Mr. Foster what the Lt Cmdr requested. I sat there and listened to this Lt Jg get his ass chewed off. As a final sign of his pettiness he told me I would have to stand by in by dress blues to assist with any electrical problems. I reminded him, that I was not allowed to do work of this sort in Dress Blues, so either I would stand by in my dungarees or not at all. In the end, I stood by in the lighting shop in my dungarees and did not participate. So even in a small issue like this I was able to disobey an unlawful order. Jim [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-military-really-that-bad/333006.md?page=4)