# Is the NFL (In Particular) on the Verge of an Attendance Crisis? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 6, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075 "2014-01-06T22:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/21 "2014-01-07T17:34:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now the teams are asking us to pay significantly more for a significantly smaller benefit of watching in person. My family has had Packer season tickets for decades. The same seat that was a $20 ticket in 1980 was a $97 ticket in 2013 (inflation between then and now would make a $20 worth about $57 in 2013 dollars). Yes, Lambeau Field has been enhanced substantially between then and now, but enough to make the ticket worth nearly twice as much? I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/22 "2014-01-07T17:42:00Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The problem I have with this discussion is that I’m 54 years old, and I’ve been hearing the same thing since I was a child in the 1970’s. > > “My God, you can watch the games _in color_ now! And they have _instant replay_! Plus, the tickets get more expensive every year–nowadays, the higher priced tickets are _almost ten dollars_!!! Will sports become a studio show?” > > Hasn’t happened yet. Probably won’t ever happen. At worst (or should I say, at best?) we’ll see the ticket price increases level off–and this will be a good thing. It’s fun to root for the NFL to fail. Sports-wise, it’s the second most frequent thing I think about these days. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/23 "2014-01-07T17:48:40Z")
I’d much rather attend a baseball game in person than watch it on TV. I’d much rather attend a basketball game in person than watch it on TV. I’d much rather attend a hockey game in person than watch it on TV. I’d much rather watch a football game on TV than attend it in person. For me it comes down to the size of the field. The action is simply too far away to see of half of the game; if you want to know what’s going on you wind up having to watch the jumbotron anyway…so why not just stay home where it’s much more comfortable? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/24 "2014-01-07T18:31:41Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I’d much rather attend a baseball game in person than watch it on TV. > I’d much rather attend a basketball game in person than watch it on TV. > I’d much rather attend a hockey game in person than watch it on TV. > > I’d much rather watch a football game on TV than attend it in person. > > For me it comes down to the size of the field. The action is simply too far away to see of half of the game; if you want to know what’s going on you wind up having to watch the jumbotron anyway…so why not just stay home where it’s much more comfortable? Agree. But bigger factors for me is the temperature outside and the jerkiness of the fans. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/25 "2014-01-07T19:25:49Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I’d much rather attend a baseball game in person than watch it on TV. > I’d much rather attend a basketball game in person than watch it on TV. > I’d much rather attend a hockey game in person than watch it on TV. > > I’d much rather watch a football game on TV than attend it in person. > > For me it comes down to the size of the field. The action is simply too far away to see of half of the game; if you want to know what’s going on you wind up having to watch the jumbotron anyway…so why not just stay home where it’s much more comfortable? ESPN Grantland editor Bill Simmons once said on his podcast, “I don’t think you can go to a hockey game and NOT have a great time.” And though the sport is way down on my personal list of favorites, I kind of understand that. It’s a great live experience, whether you follow the sport or not. Football, eh, not so much. There’s a lot of overkill in football. With less than 20 minutes of real play occurring that leaves ample time for review of the just completed play, dissection of the situation and forecasting of the next play. That’s all apparently pretty appealing to lots of folks but those people in the stadium aren’t getting much of any of that. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/26 "2014-01-07T19:29:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I have to point out, too, that attendance in other major sports has flattened out. Major League Baseball attendance, which historically has risen consistently for decades save a big dip after the 1994 strike, declined a bit in 2013 for no other reason, really, than people just didn’t want to go. NHL attendance this year is a down a bit from last year and is no better than it was from the year before. NBA attendance is frighteningly bad in some markets, though contrary to popular belief this problem did not start when Michael Jordan retired. I don’t think it is “for no other reason, really, than people just didn’t want to go”. I’m sure some folks fall into that category, but I think many more people have determined the cost is too expensive to justify. Also, as the years grind on, more and more kids are detached from baseball in a way that I can’t understand, since I am such a huge fan. But let’s face it, baseball is boring to a kid with growing up with today’s video games and other visual media. So, to get Junior excited about going to a game is a lot harder than it was when I was a kid. Hell, all I had was Pong, so I was ready to go to a game at the drop of a hat. > [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > It’s fun to root for the NFL to fail. Sports-wise, it’s the second most frequent thing I think about these days. What’s the first most frequent thing you think about? As to the OP, I agree that the home football game is better than the stadium experience. I have been to a number of NFL and college games, including AFC Championships in Pittsburgh. Freezing your butt off is freezing your butt off, regardless of whether your team wins or loses, and that is something I don’t enjoy. NFL games are terrible with commercial breaks, and watching the game on a jumbo-tron is something just about everyone does in the Stadium. Finally, the alcohol consumption before just about every NFL game I’ve gone to is ridiculous. Many people go tailgating at the stadium with no tickets and no intention of going into the stadium, they just want to drink and drink and eat. Those that go into the stadium are already toasted and continue to drink, so bad fan behavior is a real issue. I’ve sen fans in Philly throw beer and food at another fan for wearing an opposing team jersey. No one sober wants to see that, regardless of what team you root for. I certainly don’t want my child getting caught with some beer spray just for being too close to something like that, not to even mention how terrifying that can be for a kid to see a fight in the stands. I have always been amazed that I have never heard anyone getting pulled over for a dui after a football game, and very few people get arrested for being drunk in public in parking lots. Unless a fight breaks out, it’s just accepted behavior almost everywhere. I won’t go to an NFL game now even if given a ticket. I would probably go to the Super Bowl, but even that would only grab me if the Steelers were playing. The home experience is just too good, and. I control all aspects of the experience. No drunks, free parking, nice warm seat, (relatively) cheap refreshments, and no line at the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/27 "2014-01-07T19:45:18Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > What’s the first most frequent thing you think about? Soccer and its systems of competition, some of which are as messed up as our American ones, but all of which are new and interesting to me. Third on the list is how to kill amateurism in college football. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/28 "2014-01-07T20:35:35Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I don’t think it is “for no other reason, really, than people just didn’t want to go”. I’m sure some folks fall into that category, but I think many more people have determined the cost is too expensive to justify. Also, as the years grind on, more and more kids are detached from baseball in a way that I can’t understand, since I am such a huge fan. But let’s face it, baseball is boring to a kid with growing up with today’s video games and other visual media. People have been saying this for fifty years and yet attendance has never really reflected this belief. My anecdotal experience is that people suddenly find baseball fascinating at a later age than other sports; growing up I was one of few serious baseball fans I knew, but when I hit adulthood I ran into baseball fans my age all the time. Sports do not necessarily find their peak interest at the same ages or even in the same ways, and what a child does isn’t always what s/he does as an adult. After all, more kids play soccer than almost any other team sport (even hockey in Canada, believe it or not) and soccer has been immensely popular, and very well organized, for children for DECADES, but this has never translated into a wave of adult soccer interest. The only participation sport that clearly beats out soccer is basketball. While soccer’s done okay lately it’s not just on the same level in North America as the other big sports. People play soccer as kids, but watch football, baseball, basketball and hockey as adults. Conversely, very few people play organized football, and the participation rate drops to a miniscule number in adulthood, yet people watch football religiously. I was in a weekly NFL pool this year that had a cap of 50 entrants and the cap was reached in hours. Of the 50 participants not a single one plays any form of organized football. Most of them play organized baseball, but many don’t watch it on TV. Now, try to guess what the most popular participation sport for adult Canadians is… okay, I’ll tell you, it’s golf. Do Canadians watch golf? Some do, but not nearly as many as other sports. Why is that? I think it’s simple; golf isn’t a very compelling TV event. It’s extremely slow, and you cannot coherently watch all the major competitors golf; you miss most of the shots. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/29 "2014-01-08T09:57:52Z")
> [@Alex\_from\_CB](#): > > I’m a college football fan and one reason I quit going to many live games was it interfered with me watching all the other big games on Saturday. Traveling to a game limits my game day viewing. I watch one game, tivo another and switch during commercials and halftime. Also, the bath room is 20 feet away. I freeze the telecast when I go pee. The cold beer costs about $11 a 12 pack. Last NFL game I went to charged $9 for a single beer. Take a 100 mile car trip it costs about $25 in gas. Tickets are also way, too expensive. If I want to see a game, I go to craigslist and buy there. Lots of very cheap tickets people need to just dump. We were 29 year seasons ticket holders until this year. After years of adding this fee, and that fee, and requiring that donation, we said screw it. The garage we used to park in not TWO YEARS AGO for $10 a game, now requires a $500+ donation to the athletic foundation. The parking lot miles away that you used to park in if you got there late and trapse to the stadium now costs $20. The seats we’ve sat in for the last 12 years now require an athletic fund donation also (but they were happy to relocate us to worse seats if we didn’t like the fee :rolleyes:). Screw that. Instead we saved about $1,200 and a hell of a lot of stressful fall weekends. $1200 buys a hell of a lot of beer and we can be home from the bar by halftime if we’re getting trounced. A true, no brainer. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/30 "2014-01-08T11:43:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People have been saying this for fifty years and yet attendance has never really reflected this belief. My anecdotal experience is that people suddenly find baseball fascinating at a later age than other sports; growing up I was one of few serious baseball fans I knew, but when I hit adulthood I ran into baseball fans my age all the time. > > Sports do not necessarily find their peak interest at the same ages or even in the same ways, and what a child does isn’t always what s/he does as an adult. After all, more kids play soccer than almost any other team sport (even hockey in Canada, believe it or not) and soccer has been immensely popular, and very well organized, for children for DECADES, but this has never translated into a wave of adult soccer interest. The only participation sport that clearly beats out soccer is basketball. While soccer’s done okay lately it’s not just on the same level in North America as the other big sports. People play soccer as kids, but watch football, baseball, basketball and hockey as adults. Conversely, very few people play organized football, and the participation rate drops to a miniscule number in adulthood, yet people watch football religiously. I was in a weekly NFL pool this year that had a cap of 50 entrants and the cap was reached in hours. Of the 50 participants not a single one plays any form of organized football. Most of them play organized baseball, but many don’t watch it on TV. > > Now, try to guess what the most popular participation sport for adult Canadians is… okay, I’ll tell you, it’s golf. Do Canadians watch golf? Some do, but not nearly as many as other sports. Why is that? I think it’s simple; golf isn’t a very compelling TV event. It’s extremely slow, and you cannot coherently watch all the major competitors golf; you miss most of the shots. Well, i don’t know what you think I said, but I mentioned Playstations and kids… That isn’t 50 years ago. And i was referring to baseball, not alll of the other sports you mentioned. Maybe you are right. But with the higher and higher prices, better viewing options, shorter attentions spans, and better entertainment options, i don’t think declining baseball attendence should be a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/31 "2014-01-08T15:39:05Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Taking this a little further, we may want to re-evaluate what we define as success. There is a presumption that anything short of a sell-out and capacity crowd is a failure. I’m not sure why this needs to be the case. I would expect more venues to want 75-80% occupancy with headroom for more in premium events. I’m sure detailed cost-benefit analysis has been done which proves or disproves that thesis, but I suspect it’s a mistake to automatically assume anything short of a sell out is a problem. I think its pretty clear that concert promoters don’t see it this way, which is why tickets are priced low enough to allow for scalping. While raising ticket prices enough to only sell out 70% of a venue might be more profitable in the short-term, the thinking is that people have more fun, and perceive a band as being more popular and thus more desirable to see live, if the house is sold out. So long term, the more profitable route is to under-price tickets and fill the house. I assume the same thinking in football accounts for the “blackout” strategy. They want to fill the stadiums, and while forgoing the money from broadcasting obviously costs in the short-term, they believe the long-term effects on the franchise of not being able to fill seats has a much higher cost. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/32 "2014-01-08T16:05:19Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The problem I have with this discussion is that I’m 54 years old, and I’ve been hearing the same thing since I was a child in the 1970’s. > > “My God, you can watch the games _in color_ now! And they have _instant replay_! Plus, the tickets get more expensive every year–nowadays, the higher priced tickets are _almost ten dollars_!!! Will sports become a studio show?” > > Hasn’t happened yet. Probably won’t ever happen. At worst (or should I say, at best?) we’ll see the ticket price increases level off–and this will be a good thing. Yeah, but I’d have to say the way TV watching has gotten much better in the past 15 years or so dwarfs any change since color TV became standard back in the 1960s. Going from 26" to 72" screens, cathode-ray tubes to digital HDTV, not to mention TiVo enabling you to pause the game you’re watching in real time and fast-forward through the commercials…even a guy like me who watches TV almost never has to admit that there’s been quite a revolution in TV quality in the past decade or so that dwarfs any changes from the previous 30+ years. And over that same ~15 years, the prices of NFL tickets have gone up considerably faster than inflation. In short, what’s been happening in the past 15 years isn’t like what was happening in the previous three decades. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/33 "2014-01-08T19:56:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yeah, but I’d have to say the way TV watching has gotten much better in the past 15 years or so dwarfs any change since color TV became standard back in the 1960s. Going from 26" to 72" screens, cathode-ray tubes to digital HDTV, not to mention TiVo enabling you to pause the game you’re watching in real time and fast-forward through the commercials… There’s no denying that those things are awesome . . . but instant replay was pretty awesome when it was introduced, too. We forget _how_ awesome, because we take it for granted. But, nothing like it had ever been seen, and nothing like it _at all_ was available at the stadium. There was no in-stadium video at all until the 1980’s, and even then it wasn’t very good. I mean, it’s _possible_ that the latest TV advances will finally glue people to their couch. I can’t prove that they won’t. But it’s equally possible (and IMO more likely) that they will have the same effect as TV advances in the past–to get more people interested in the sport, which ultimately generates _more_ attendance. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075/34 "2014-01-08T21:23:20Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > There’s no denying that those things are awesome . . . but instant replay was pretty awesome when it was introduced, too. I’d just say this: having been around as both were coming in, instant replay on TV wasn’t nearly as big a deal as color TV. Anyway, that was back in the mid-1960s. What I’m saying is that the experience of watching a game on TV really didn’t change much between 1968 and 1998. What you’ve heard _since you’ve been a child in the 1970s_ has been **wrong** until the past ~15 years. Really the main thing that happened with TV over those decades was that old-fashioned cathode-ray TV got a lot cheaper, so it was no big deal to have TVs in a few different rooms in the house, instead of just one TV in the family room. But that didn’t improve the experience of watching a game on one of those TVs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-nfl-in-particular-on-the-verge-of-an-attendance-crisis/678075.md?page=1)