# Is the Office of the Vice President part of the Executive Branch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2007, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610 "2007-02-10T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/41 "2007-06-25T17:22:18Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] It is called the Vice **President**. I know that is simplistic, but I think it is telling. Since “vice” means “in place of” it seems to me that the Vice President would be seen as an executive meant to serve in stead of the President, under certain conditions. [/QUOTE] Well, the VP can serve as acting president when the president is incapacitated – that’s provided in the [25th Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_three:_Voluntary_withdrawal) – but otherwise, there is no constitutional provision for the VP serving in the president’s stead. His powers are very limited. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/42 "2007-06-26T00:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Well, the VP can serve as acting president when the president is incapacitated – that’s provided in the [25th Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_three:_Voluntary_withdrawal) – but otherwise, there is no constitutional provision for the VP serving in the president’s stead. His powers are very limited. [/QUOTE] The VP’s _specific_ powers _enumerated in the Constitution_ are very limited. But Bush has delegated to him a considerable amount of power. All that power is Executive power, and doesn’t rest at all on his role as President of the Senate. It’s hard to see how anything pertaining to Cheney’s exercise of that power wouldn’t be subject to laws and Executive orders covering the entire Executive Branch. Bush could have just as easily picked another Veep, and made Cheney his chief of staff, to the same effect. The only difference, really, is that the Veep can’t be fired by the President in mid-term, only impeached by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/43 "2007-06-26T00:57:57Z")
Mustn’t forget that tie-breaking vote in the Senate, which usually doesn’t mean much, but in interesting times, such as these… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/44 "2007-06-26T02:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Bush could have just as easily picked another Veep, and made Cheney his chief of staff, to the same effect. The only difference, really, is that the Veep can’t be fired by the President in mid-term, only impeached by Congress. [/QUOTE] If only. Has there ever been a credible rundown of who had been short-listed for the VP spot before Cheney decided he was the best man for the job? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/45 "2007-06-26T02:51:45Z")
Obviously, the solution is for Congress to pass a metric boatload of laws that begin with, “The Constitutional Office of the Vice-President of the United States is subject to…” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/46 "2007-06-26T15:18:20Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] In this morning’s WaPo, Barton Gellman has the first installment of a [four-part series about Cheney](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/23/AR2007062300890.html?hpid=topnews) and how he wielded power in this Administration. [/QUOTE] Part two: [“Pushing the Envelope on Presidential Power”.](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/pushing_the_envelope_on_presi/) Part three: [“A Strong Push from Backstage”.](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/a_strong_push_from_back_stage/index.html) The concluding installment, tomorrow, will be about Cheney’s influence on the Admin’s environmental policies. (Regarding which, see [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=426052) thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/47 "2007-06-26T15:49:52Z")
In a clip from July 25, 2001 played on the Daily Show, Cheney said: > [@](#): > > This request, that in fact we were supposed to provide him with this information with respect to those meetings in the executive branch between the Vice-President and other individuals strikes me as inappropriate. It seems to me that at that time, being in the executive branch suited him just fine. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/48 "2007-06-26T15:58:02Z")
Well, sure, \*at that time \* he was part of the executive! But the VP’s Office is flexible to a marvelous extent, which displays, once again, the genius of the Founding Fathers in creating a highly malleable branch of governance, once that can adapt instantly to conditions as they arise. For example, when Cheney had the misfortune to shoot a lawyer out of season, he determined, on the spot, that he was not subject to the vexations of the Texas Highway Patrol. In this instance, he adopted his capacity in the _judicial_ branch (dunno, maybe he keeps a set of robes and a gavel in his luggage…). In his judicial capacity, he made the determination that was needful under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/49 "2007-06-26T17:16:42Z")
Some priceless [excerpts](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070625-5.html) from yesterday’s White House press briefing: > [@](#): > > Q Okay. And just lastly, it’s a little surreal – I mean, how is it possible – > > MS. PERINO: You’re telling me. > > Q Well – that you can’t give an opinion about whether the Vice President is part of the executive branch or not? > > MS. PERINO: All I know is that – > > Q It’s a little bit like somebody saying, “I don’t know if this is my wife or not.” (Laughter.) > > MS. PERINO: I think it’s a little bit more complicated than that. > > Q No, but honestly, I mean, there’s no – > > MS. PERINO: No, honestly, I think it’s more complicated than that. I do. > > * * * > > Q Dana, for 200-plus years, everybody from civics class on up has had a certain understanding of the way our government works. And this EO clarifies more than 200 years of constitutional scholarship about the way our system works? > > MS. PERINO: Maybe it’s me, but I think that everyone is making this a little bit more complicated than it needs to be. The President writes an executive order; he says – > > Q I’m talking about the part where the Vice President says that there’s a question about whether or not he’s part of the executive branch. > > MS. PERINO: And the point I was trying to make to you before is that I – > > Q This really falls into “sky is blue” stuff. > > * * * > > Q But how is being a part of another branch – I guess it’s debatable – but how is that an out? > > MS. PERINO: It’s not an – that’s irrelevant because the President never intended for the Vice President to be subject to the executive order. > > Q No, he introduced the topic. The Office of the Vice President introduces that into the argument, into the debate; “well, we’re not part of the executive branch.” > > MS. PERINO: I think that that is also a fact – and as I said to Kelly, I’ll see if I can get more from the Vice President’s office to see if they – how they connected the two, or if they did. > > Q He can argue he’s part of both, but he can’t possibly argue that he’s part of neither. And it seems like he’s saying he’s part of neither. > > MS. PERINO: Okay, you have me thoroughly confused, as well. > > Q He doesn’t know his wife – (Laughter.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/50 "2007-06-26T17:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] In a clip from July 25, 2001 played on the Daily Show, Cheney said: It seems to me that at that time, being in the executive branch suited him just fine. [/QUOTE] Maybe it’s time for a new request to see the energy task force minutes, now that Cheney’s made it clear that he regards as moot the original legal justification for keeping them secret. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/51 "2007-06-26T17:53:45Z")
Truth is, Cheney could not possibly care less about the whole mess. He knows that the Congress has neither the will nor the time nor the votes to impeach and convict him, so he’s going to thumb his nose at everybody and run the clock out. Perhaps as a result of this we’ll go back to the Agnew type veep (totally uninvolved) as opposed to the Cheney type. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/52 "2007-06-26T18:09:26Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] In a clip from July 25, 2001 played on the Daily Show, Cheney said: It seems to me that at that time, being in the executive branch suited him just fine. [/QUOTE] I was wondering about that. Does this mean we can finally get access to those records, since Cheney is no longer claiming executive privilege? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/53 "2007-06-26T18:26:56Z")
See any pig flop dropping from the sky? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/54 "2007-06-26T23:03:22Z")
Stephen Colbert’s take on this was brilliant… he was talking about checks and balances, and how the three branches of government are like rock, paper and scissors. So then he gets one of his staffers over, and says “want to play a game of Rock Paper Scissors Cheney”? So they go “one two three…”, and the staffer holds out scissors, and Stephen puts his hand under his desk (where we can’t see it), and says “OK, I beat you”. And the staffer says “what do you have?”, and Stephen says “I can’t tell you”. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/55 "2007-06-27T02:46:52Z")
Deleted as a duplicate. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/56 "2007-06-27T02:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Maybe it’s time for a new request to see the energy task force minutes, now that Cheney’s made it clear that he regards as moot the original legal justification for keeping them secret. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Won’t work. There is a Supreme Court decision that says he doesn’t have to. I’ll say again that the constitution has been shown to contain a few weaknesses. They are a result of the framers assumption that those elected to run the country would have at least a dash of honesty. Their optimism seems to have been unjustified.. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/57 "2007-06-27T10:31:56Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] I’ll say again that the constitution has been shown to contain a few weaknesses. They are a result of the framers assumption that those elected to run the country would have at least a dash of honesty. [/QUOTE] I don’t know. It took over 200 years before we got this pair. Let’s hope that it takes 200 more years to repeat the process. Getting a guy with Cheney’s Machiavellian nature AND Bush’s incompetent inattention AND a Congress which for 6 years turned a blind eye is a one in a million shot. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/58 "2007-06-27T12:14:59Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Getting a guy with Cheney’s Machiavellian nature AND Bush’s incompetent inattention AND a Congress which for 6 years turned a blind eye is a one in a million shot. [/QUOTE] Well, 1 in 43. Or, at least that’s how it turned out; let’s hope that it was a fluke. I don’t remember the details of the SCOTUS decision (regarding Cheney claiming executive privilege to keep from disclosing which members of the oil industry dictated our national energy policy), but, if that decision confirmed Cheney’s executive standing, couldn’t it be used as a precedent against him now? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/59 "2007-06-27T12:16:15Z")
Actually, it appears that [Cheney did not assert executive privilege](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=03-475) in the task force meeting case. Instead, he claimed that it wasn’t actually a task force, or something similarly Clintonian. However, the court decision linked above provides an interesting overview of the lower court’s decision: > [@](#): > > While acknowledging that discovery itself might raise serious constitutional questions, the court explained that the Government could assert executive privilege to protect sensitive materials from disclosure. The court noted that if, after discovery, respondents had no evidentiary support for their allegations about de facto members in the Group, the Government could prevail on statutory grounds. Even were it appropriate to address constitutional issues, the court explained, its discovery orders would provide the factual development necessary to determine the extent of the alleged intrusion into the Executive’s constitutional authority. It appears here not to question that Cheney is part of the executive branch. Granted, in this case Bush appointed him to the panel, but still, I wonder how many other precedents there are for treating the veep as an executive position. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610/60 "2007-06-27T15:38:27Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I don’t know. It took over 200 years before we got this pair. Let’s hope that it takes 200 more years to repeat the process. Getting a guy with Cheney’s Machiavellian nature AND Bush’s incompetent inattention AND a Congress which for 6 years turned a blind eye is a one in a million shot. [/QUOTE] Well, there was the Nixon Admin, where the Machiavellian figure was POTUS in his own right and surrounded himself with like-minded aides. But, yeah, this is worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-office-of-the-vice-president-part-of-the-executive-branch/391610.md?page=4)