# Is the paris accord really unfair to the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929 "2017-06-02T14:39:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/101 "2017-06-05T22:01:12Z")
Breitbart and the Heritage foundation, huh ? Why not Conservapedia and infowars while you were at it ? Then fair and balance it with a 4chan’s /pol quote or some redditor’s blog maybe ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/102 "2017-06-05T22:07:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Breitbart and the Heritage foundation, huh ? Why not Conservapedia and infowars while you were at it ? Then fair and balance it with a 4chan’s /pol quote or some redditor’s blog maybe ? I was going to get you links just for laughs, but I refuse to go on anything associated with Alex Jones, even as a joke. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/103 "2017-06-06T00:48:58Z")
[John Oliver did a piece on the Paris Agreement yesterday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5scez5dqtAc). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/104 "2017-06-06T04:30:41Z")
Does anyone know of a place to verify amounts actually contributed thus far to the “Green Climate Fund”? [Their website](http://www.greenclimate.fund/partners/contributors/resources-mobilized) lists “announced” and “signed” categories, but not … (not sure if this is the right word) … “contributed” / “fulfilled” / something like that. [Fox News tweeted out](https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/871465397316399107) that we’ve contributed $1B (out of our $3B pledge), and that China, Russia, and India haven’t contributed any yet (they appear to not have even announced any contribution). Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/105 "2017-06-06T11:56:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does anyone know of a place to verify amounts actually contributed thus far to the “Green Climate Fund”? [Their website](http://www.greenclimate.fund/partners/contributors/resources-mobilized) lists “announced” and “signed” categories, but not … (not sure if this is the right word) … “contributed” / “fulfilled” / something like that. [Fox News tweeted out](https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/871465397316399107) that we’ve contributed $1B (out of our $3B pledge), and that China, Russia, and India haven’t contributed any yet (they appear to not have even announced any contribution). Anyone know? This document has pledges and actual contributions to date. > **[Status of Pledges and Contributions (Initial Resource Mobilization)](https://www.greenclimate.fund/document/status-pledges-and-contributions-initial-resource-mobilization)** > > A total of 49 countries/regions/cities have made a pledge to the Green Climate Fund (GCF), including 9 representing developing countries. The objective is for all pledges to be converted into contribution agreements within one year from the time at... ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/106 "2017-06-06T13:28:35Z")
Thank you for the link! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/107 "2017-06-06T14:12:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This is how Trump actually views things like this. He believes this…stuff. While I think there are grains of truth in some of it, overall I think Trump is a nut. Every day it just seems to get more disturbing. I used to laugh at comparisons between Trump and, say, Mussolini or Franco, but…well, I don’t laugh nearly as hard now, let’s say… El Generalísimo had better hair. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/108 "2017-06-06T15:31:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Thank you for the link! 🙂 My pleasure. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/109 "2017-06-06T16:57:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [John Oliver did a piece on the Paris Agreement yesterday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5scez5dqtAc). Unfortunately, the three Trump voters who watched this (by mistake) lost the thread about a minute and a half into it and clicked over to Breitbart and [del]The Heritage Group[/del] Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/110 "2017-06-06T17:20:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Unfortunately, the three Trump voters who watched this (by mistake) lost the thread about a minute and a half into it and clicked over to Breitbart and [del]The Heritage Group[/del] Fox News. I actually watched the whole thing. I thought it was very typical John Oliver type stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/111 "2017-06-06T17:49:39Z")
Well, yeah, Oliver has a shtick he has to follow. The central thing I would hope anyone would come away with, though, is that most of what Trump said about the Paris agreement were flat-out lies. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/112 "2017-06-06T17:50:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually watched the whole thing. I thought it was very typical John Oliver type stuff. Awesome. As an aside, I find your posts to be the most **HurricaneDitka** -like on the SDMB. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/113 "2017-06-06T18:24:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, yeah, Oliver has a shtick he has to follow. > > The central thing I would hope anyone would come away with, though, is that most of what Trump said about the Paris agreement were flat-out lies. Rather than turning to John Oliver, someone I consider to be a good ways off from a neutral arbiter of facts, why don’t you work from [the primary source material](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/01/statement-president-trump-paris-climate-accord) and craft your own arguments? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/114 "2017-06-06T18:34:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The central thing I would hope anyone would come away with, though, is that most of what Trump said about the Paris agreement were flat-out lies. I’m sure that’s the impression that Oliver wanted to give, too. What’s the point of spin if nobody buys it? > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > As an aside, I find your posts to be the most HurricaneDitka-like on the SDMB. Yours, on the other hand, have little to distinguish them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/115 "2017-06-06T19:12:08Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] El Generalísimo had better hair. [/QUOTE] I recently heard he was still dead, however. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/116 "2017-06-06T20:01:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Rather than turning to John Oliver, someone I consider to be a good ways off from a neutral arbiter of facts, why don’t you work from [the primary source material](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/01/statement-president-trump-paris-climate-accord) and craft your own arguments? Sure, that is reasonable. How about this? > [@](#): > > Further, while the current agreement effectively blocks the development of clean coal in America – which it does, and the mines are starting to open up. We’re having a big opening in two weeks. Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, so many places. A big opening of a brand-new mine. It’s unheard of. For many, many years, that hasn’t happened. They asked me if I’d go. I’m going to try. > > China will be allowed to build hundreds of additional coal plants. So we can’t build the plants, but they can, according to this agreement. India will be allowed to double its coal production by 2020. Think of it: India can double their coal production. We’re supposed to get rid of ours. Even Europe is allowed to continue construction of coal plants. > > In short, the agreement doesn’t eliminate coal jobs, it just transfers those jobs out of America and the United States, and ships them to foreign countries. Let’s pretend for a moment that it’s policy that has stopped coal, not market economics related to the fact that we have engineered ways to get vast amounts of natural gas…or that coal plants have additional costs associated with operations (not any of those namby pamby eco ones, but with stuff like fly ash and soot in operation), and just focus on the vast jobs that the coal sector has. Today, there are around 60,000 jobs related to coal in the US. Even if he reverses that trend in spite of the fact that we’d be talking about holding onto those great buggy whip and telephone operator jobs, it’s a drop in the bucket wrt US employment. Then, having considered that, let’s think about something…by what mechanism does the PA prevent the US from building new coal plants, if it so desires? Or operating existing ones? By what mechanism does it ‘allow’ China to build 100 new plants (which, China is saying now they [aren’t going to do](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-to-halt-construction-on-coal-fired-power-plants-in-15-regions/))? Essentially, this statement here is spin and bullshit, and it’s pretty indicative of Trump’s whole speech. I could parse through the whole thing, but, really, I don’t see anything in there (and, as you watched the whole John Oliver video, I slogged through Trump’s whole speech, gods help me) that is accurate or spun so heavily to be misleading to anyone who doesn’t understand the issues. The overarching point Trump is making, which is this will cost the US millions of jobs and billions of dollars is simply spin…Big Coal simply doesn’t have the jobs, and the jobs lost to coal have been amply shifted to natural gas and oil (and all of the jobs associated or supporting those workers). This leaves aside all that green energy stuff, which has also seen an upsurge. So, I challenge you now…you read through Trump’s speech and you pick out what YOU think are accurate statements. Maybe, in sifting through the vast amount of chaff and horseshit I missed some gem in there somewhere. And since this is what the discussion is about, it would be a great place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/117 "2017-06-06T20:15:05Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, I challenge you now…you read through Trump’s speech and you pick out what YOU think are accurate statements. Maybe, in sifting through the vast amount of chaff and horseshit I missed some gem in there somewhere. And since this is what the discussion is about, it would be a great place to start. I would love to see that list! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/118 "2017-06-06T20:22:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sure, that is reasonable. How about this? > > Let’s pretend for a moment that it’s policy that has stopped coal, not market economics related to the fact that we have engineered ways to get vast amounts of natural gas…or that coal plants have additional costs associated with operations (not any of those namby pamby eco ones, but with stuff like fly ash and soot in operation), and just focus on the vast jobs that the coal sector has. Today, there are around 60,000 jobs related to coal in the US. Even if he reverses that trend in spite of the fact that we’d be talking about holding onto those great buggy whip and telephone operator jobs, it’s a drop in the bucket wrt US employment. > > Then, having considered that, let’s think about something…by what mechanism does the PA prevent the US from building new coal plants, if it so desires? Or operating existing ones? By what mechanism does it ‘allow’ China to build 100 new plants (which, China is saying now they [aren’t going to do](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-to-halt-construction-on-coal-fired-power-plants-in-15-regions/))? Essentially, this statement here is spin and bullshit, and it’s pretty indicative of Trump’s whole speech. I could parse through the whole thing, but, really, I don’t see anything in there (and, as you watched the whole John Oliver video, I slogged through Trump’s whole speech, gods help me) that is accurate or spun so heavily to be misleading to anyone who doesn’t understand the issues. The overarching point Trump is making, which is this will cost the US millions of jobs and billions of dollars is simply spin…Big Coal simply doesn’t have the jobs, and the jobs lost to coal have been amply shifted to natural gas and oil (and all of the jobs associated or supporting those workers). This leaves aside all that green energy stuff, which has also seen an upsurge. > > So, I challenge you now…you read through Trump’s speech and you pick out what YOU think are accurate statements. Maybe, in sifting through the vast amount of chaff and horseshit I missed some gem in there somewhere. And since this is what the discussion is about, it would be a great place to start. I know this challenge was not for me, but after scouring his speech, I did find one statement that can be arguably construed as “true” > [@](#): > > appointing and confirming a tremendous Supreme Court justice; depending on your definition of the word “tremendous”. That’s all I got, sorry. ETA: just saw this as well > [@](#): > > In short, the agreement doesn’t eliminate coal jobs, If he ended the sentence there, it would be a true statement. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/119 "2017-06-06T20:23:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Awesome. As an aside, I find your posts to be the most **HurricaneDitka** -like on the SDMB. > :rolleyes: > [@Shodan](#): > > Yours, on the other hand, have little to distinguish them. Knock off the petty sniping. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929/120 "2017-06-06T21:03:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, I challenge you now…you read through Trump’s speech and you pick out what YOU think are accurate statements. Maybe, in sifting through the vast amount of chaff and horseshit I missed some gem in there somewhere. And since this is what the discussion is about, it would be a great place to start. Thanks for your sincere and thoughtful response. I’m going to have to decline your invitation to try and catalog _all_ of Trump’s accurate statements in the announcement (I simply don’t have the time). I don’t doubt, as a guy who is typically light on details and cares little for lawyer-like precision in his statements, that there are some things Trump said that are inaccurate. I don’t think it’s “most” of what he said, and I don’t know if I’d use the term “flat-out lies” to describe very much of it, but YMMV. Since you guys seem to be struggling to find any true statement there, let me see if I can help you out with one. Let’s just take the first paragraph that you quoted: > [@](#): > > Further, while the current agreement effectively blocks the development of clean coal in America – which it does, and the mines are starting to open up. We’re having a big opening in two weeks. Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, so many places. A big opening of a brand-new mine. It’s unheard of. For many, many years, that hasn’t happened. They asked me if I’d go. I’m going to try. Is that true or false? I didn’t know, and he didn’t offer much in the way of specifics, so I decided to go do some research. Here is what I found: [CNN: Trump’s right](http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/investing/coal-mine-trump-paris-speech/index.html) and [NPR](http://www.npr.org/2017/06/02/531255253/fact-check-is-president-trump-correct-that-coal-mines-are-opening). It seems that he was referring to the Acosta Deep Mine, in Jennerstown, PA, set to open on June 8th. Now, the 70 or so jobs it creates aren’t going to single-handedly save the industry, but this claim seems to be mostly true. Agree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-paris-accord-really-unfair-to-the-usa/787929.md?page=7)