# Is the photo of the Reichstag flag more famous than the Iwo Jima flag? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480 "2016-11-30T19:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/61 "2016-12-01T17:32:28Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, not among the English, I’d imagine. They weren’t directly involved in the Battle for Berlin, but they also weren’t directly involved in the Battle of Iwo Jima and, of the two, the Battle for Berlin would loom much larger in their awareness for a variety of fairly obvious reasons. > > As noted, in Ireland the Berlin image would be much more familiar (it was in my High School history book, if I remember correctly, and even then it was already familiar to me) and I would expect the same to be true in Britain. I’m British and would say it’s pretty evenly split. Perhaps I have ‘slightly’ better recognition of the US shot, due to our exposure to US culture. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/62 "2016-12-01T18:00:39Z")
While we’re on the subject, here’s a question… why on earth was there that much of the Reichstag building left? Wouldn’t it have been target #1 for bombing and artillery for months? (And as an American I’m familiar with the Reichstag photo, but far moreso with the Iwo Jima shot, not surprisingly. I think the latter is superior purely as a photograph.) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/63 "2016-12-01T18:14:03Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’m surprised by the number of Americans who haven’t seen the Reichstag flag before. I guess this is the disadvantage of studying something, you forget what you used to not know. American here. I know I’ve seen the Reichstag picture a number of times before, but it never occured to me that it was iconic. I suspect that many, if not most, Americans have also seen it, but it didn’t have much emotional effect, so they soon forgot it. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m starting to wonder if World War II really happened at all. Maybe they reused the soundstage for the Apollo shots… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/64 "2016-12-01T18:23:42Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > In Russia it sure as shit is, and it represents a battle, campaign, theatre orders of magnitude greater than the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima. It was the culmination of the deaths of millions over vast, devastated swathes of White Russia and East Europe, compared with the deaths of thousands over tiny coral atolls in the Pacific (this is not to disparage those who fought) . By way of comparison, the Soviets lost around 82,000 KIA and 280,000 WIA in the Battle for Berlin. The Americans lost 6,821 KIA and 19,000 WIA taking Iwo Jima. I love how the Russians try to make their contributions great by telling us how many men they sent to their death.\* " I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/65 "2016-12-01T18:31:12Z")
And that picture should be entitled “raising the\* tablecloth\* over the Reichstag” ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/66 "2016-12-01T18:35:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > While we’re on the subject, here’s a question… why on earth was there that much of the Reichstag building left? Wouldn’t it have been target #1 for bombing and artillery for months? It wasn’t a military target, any more than the Capitol building in Washington would be. In fact, it hadn’t even been repaired after the fire so was not in use as a legislative meeting place. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/67 "2016-12-01T18:41:32Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Although I’ve read a lot about WWII throughout my life, and watched documentaries and experienced the history in various ways, I have to say that not only have I never seen the Reichstag photo before, I’ve never even heard of it. Same here. I actually felt kinda stupid when I clicked and didn’t recognize the photo. :o ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/68 "2016-12-01T20:21:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I love how the Russians try to make their contributions great by telling us how many men they sent to their death.\* " I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." > \* I suppose there is something to be said about Zapp Brannigan’s strategy of throwing waves of your own troops at the enemy until they hit their kill count limit and shut down. Assuming your enemy is killbots with a fixed kill count limit. Or humans with limited supplies, ammunition, or reinforcements, which amounts the same thing. In other words, it’s one way to win a war of attrition. The best strategy the Soviets (or the Union, or the Syrians) could have had. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/69 "2016-12-01T20:44:08Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > But if you just said “images of victory over Hitler” that would be the first one that sprang to my mind. Yeah, the detonation of the Nuremberg Swastika is the one that comes to mind, along with a handful of post-battle Berlin pictures showing the destruction that happened as a result of the battle. The Reichstag flag one isn’t really one that comes immediately to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/70 "2016-12-02T00:03:45Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Rosenthal denied numerous times that he staged the Iwo Jima picture. Yes, he did once say it was staged, but he thought he was being asked about a different photo. Not staged, but also not the original smaller flag originally placed at that point. Yank/Australian. I can’t visualise the Reichstage picture, but I knew immediately what you were talking about. The European war was big, but the Pacific War was much bigger in Aus. So the fact that I’ve even heard of the Reichstag picture indicates how important it is. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/71 "2016-12-02T00:12:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I love how the Russians try to make their contributions great by telling us how many men they sent to their death.\* " I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." > \* These are guys who cleared a mine field by marching troops through it, and strapped bombs on dogs to blow up tanks, and fed said dogs from a tank. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/72 "2016-12-02T00:15:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, the detonation of the Nuremberg Swastika is the one that comes to mind, along with a handful of post-battle Berlin pictures showing the destruction that happened as a result of the battle. > > The Reichstag flag one isn’t really one that comes immediately to mind. I thought of the Rooskies blowing up the swastika when I read the title of the thread. Perhaps blowing stuff up is easier to remember. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/73 "2016-12-02T02:12:42Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > The Soviets were no boys choir. Not going to get into that discussion here in this thread.If it’s in another thread and I’ll join you. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Forgive a digression. Why did the Japanese like MacArthur, their military governor so much? **RickJay** really hit it. Japanese were facing the complete destruction of their entire nation. Then the government surrendered and they started climbing out that that huge mess. However, it’s easy to overlook at how radical the actual change was for Japan. It’s almost impossible overstate the effects on the society. Imagine what it would have been like for America if the Soviets had managed to conquer us in the 1960s. Going from an American way of live to a communist government; everything you knew would be completely different. Everything you learned as a child and believed was suddenly uprooted. I first lived in Japan in the early 80s and consequently knew many people who had gone through that era. A friend in Nagasaki lived through the bombing there. I lived with my (now ex-) wife and her family for a year; her parents had been children during the war. I dated a woman whose father was a Zero pilot. Ordinary Japanese were powerless in the Japanese militaristic society. They didn’t chose the leader which lead them into war and consequently many felt that they were victims as well. This is one reason that the belief that Japan suffered because of the atomic bombing was so easy to accept. Hence, the reason that the Hiroshima Dome picture is so iconic for Japanese. McArthur did well as a military governor. However, the Korean War came at a very fortuitous time in that there were growing agitations to move beyond American occupation. Had the war not occurred, then it’s really likely that “America’s Caesar” would have fought to stay on long past his welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/74 "2016-12-02T02:17:19Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Add me to the Americans that have never seen the Reichstag photo. > > And high casualty counts by themselves don’t mean you were better in battle - technically, it means you were worse, even if you ultimately won. > > No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I love how the Russians try to make their contributions great by telling us how many men they sent to their death.\* " I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." > \* :rolleyes: Oh, for fuck’s sake. Look, I’m no big fan of the Russians, but they didn’t just do the bulk of the _dying_, thay also did the bulk of the [killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II). _“Overmans stated that there is not sufficient data to break down the 1,230,045 deaths in the 1945 Final Battles in Germany between the Western Allied invasion of Germany and Eastern Front in 1945, although he estimates that 2/3 of these casualties can be attributed to the Eastern Front. **Overall he estimated losses for the entire war on the Eastern front at 4 million and in the West 1 million**.[32]”_ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/75 "2016-12-02T02:18:46Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Rosenthal denied numerous times that he staged the Iwo Jima picture. Yes, he did once say it was staged, but he thought he was being asked about a different photo. It was not the first flag-raising on the mountain top. It might not have been “staged,” but it was a re-enactment, which is awfully close to the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/76 "2016-12-02T02:26:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It might not have been “staged,” but it was a re-enactment, which is awfully close to the same thing. Likewise with the iconic [McArthur Returns](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Douglas_MacArthur_lands_Leyte1.jpg) photo. Initially, Mac had been really pissed because the pilot(?) of the landing craft had stopped offshore and made them wade in. He loved his clean uniforms but afterwards realized the propaganda value and staged the re-enactment. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/77 "2016-12-02T02:28:30Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > **Overall he estimated losses for the entire war on the Eastern front at 4 million and in the West 1 million**.[32]"\* When I read [_Ivan’s War_](https://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life-Death-1939-1945/dp/0312426526), I hope I remember to get back to this thread. At the moment all that comes to mind is an astounding number of rapes. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/78 "2016-12-02T05:42:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It was not the first flag-raising on the mountain top. It might not have been “staged,” but it was a re-enactment, which is awfully close to the same thing. It wasn’t a re-enactment, either, according to the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima#Raising_the_second_flag) (with numerous cites). > [@](#): > > Forrestal was so taken with fervor of the moment that he decided he wanted the Second Battalion’s flag flying on Mt. Suribachi as a souvenir. The news of this wish did not sit well with 2nd Battalion Commander Chandler Johnson, whose temperament was every bit as fiery as Howlin Mad’s. “To hell with that!” the colonel spat when the message reached him. The flag belonged to the battalion, as far as Johnson was concerned. He decided to secure it as soon as possible, and dispatched his assistant operations officer, Lieutenant Ted Tuttle, to the beach to obtain a replacement flag. As an afterthought, Johnson called after Tuttle: “And make it a bigger one.” ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/79 "2016-12-02T07:26:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I love how the Russians try to make their contributions great by telling us how many men they sent to their death.\* " I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." > \* > [@gnoitall](#): > > I suppose there is something to be said about Zapp Brannigan’s strategy of throwing waves of your own troops at the enemy until they hit their kill count limit and shut down. Assuming your enemy is killbots with a fixed kill count limit. Or humans with limited supplies, ammunition, or reinforcements, which amounts the same thing. > > In other words, it’s one way to win a war of attrition. The best strategy the Soviets (or the Union, or the Syrians) could have had. The numbers for the Soviets are far less dramatic when you consider the scale of the battle. There were 2 500 000 men in the Battle for Berlin, with 350 000 casualties that’s a loss of just 14% of the total force. The US losses at Iwo Jima are closer to 25%. And to get back to the OP. To me, a history buff, both photos are equally recognisable / iconic. For my fellow South Africans they’ve seen the Iwo Jima photo before in US media but couldn’t tell you what it represents. And they wouldn’t recognise the Reichstag pic or have any clue about it. But a big part of that is people here just don’t learn much about the second world war. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/80 "2016-12-02T09:13:34Z")
The Iwo Jima photograph is the more memorable in the sense that it is the more dramatic, arresting composition. I was familiar with it as an image, and as an icon celebrating American military qualities, before I knew what it was called. And, when I _did_ learn what it was called, I had only the vaguest idea where Iwo Jima was, and no sense of whether the taking of Iwo Jima was a particularly significant event. The Berlin image is less visually dramatic, but everybody knows were Berlin is and why the fall of Berlin was such a momentous event. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480.md?page=5)