# Is the photo of the Reichstag flag more famous than the Iwo Jima flag? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480 "2016-11-30T19:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/81 "2016-12-02T09:18:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The USSR troops started fighting the Nazis on June 22, 1941. > > The United States military first engaged the Nazi troops on November 8, 1942, in Operation Torch in North Africa. > > Which was belated? USSR. They could have done more to prevent Germany from even expanding by not participating in the partition of Poland. [Occupation of Poland (1939–1945) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%9345)) Then Stalin waited til he was snuck attack by his so-called ally even though he had ample signals an attack was likely. [Barbarossa Hitler Stalin: War warnings Stalin ignored - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13862135) So belated relative to the USA? No. Belated relative to when firm action against Nazi Germany could have been taken at less cost? In my opinion yes. eta. I note that carnivorousplant interpreted my meaning almost verbatim! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/82 "2016-12-02T13:56:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I note that carnivorousplant interpreted my meaning almost verbatim! I’ve been reading about FDR and the meeting of “the Big Three”. I am not a nerd. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/83 "2016-12-02T14:55:42Z")
As a number of posts have suggested, most Americans have probably never seen or heard of the Reichstag flag raising picture. Non-American native English speakers I would have predicted much more likely to say ‘both’ but OTOH IME they are typically sensitive to appearing to be in a US orbit. But the reason they are sensitive is that English language stuff tends to be so US oriented, and in US sphere the Iwo Jima picture really is ‘iconic’ and the Reichstag one pretty obscure. So I’m not sure I buy that the average Canadian or Aussie is really as familiar with the Russian photo for that reason. Though I’m not doubting anyone’s personal word that they are. In Russia obviously it’s the opposite, though I wonder if the Iwo picture is as obscure there as the Reichstag one is in the US, maybe so. And I wonder if either photo is all that ‘iconic’ in a lot of the globe. Are the mass of people in China for example familiar with either photo? I mean the 100’s mils average people, not elite highly educated English speakers on English web forums. In Latin America or Africa? Only semi-rhetorical, I wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/84 "2016-12-02T15:37:05Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’m surprised by the number of Americans who haven’t seen the Reichstag flag before. I guess this is the disadvantage of studying something, you forget what you used to not know. Me too. I would consider the photos nearly equally famous, with a slight edge to the Iwo Jima photo. The number of people chiming in to say that they don’t recognize the Reichstag photo is jaw dropping. People, this is probably in the top 3 of iconic images from the bloodiest conflict in the history of the world and you don’t recognize it? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/85 "2016-12-02T15:59:05Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > People, this is probably in the top 3 of iconic images from the bloodiest conflict in the history of the world and you don’t recognize it? What makes it “in the top 3”? In U.S. media, including U.S. textbooks, it’s NOT one of the more commonly-encountered photos. Raising the flag at Iwo Jima, the U.S.S. Arizona at Pearl Harbor, the Big Three at Casablanca and/or Yalta, Roosevelt giving a fireside chat, and for the European theater St. Paul’s during the Blitz, the gates at Auschwitz, and any of several shots of troops wading ashore at Normandy are **far** better-known. These are the images I’ve seen over and over since I was a small child, so they’re the ones that immediately invoke a response. I recognize the Reichstag photo, but I don’t consider it “iconic.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/86 "2016-12-02T18:53:01Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. Look, I’m no big fan of the Russians, but they didn’t just do the bulk of the _dying_, thay also did the bulk of the [killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II). > > _“Overmans stated that there is not sufficient data to break down the 1,230,045 deaths in the 1945 Final Battles in Germany between the Western Allied invasion of Germany and Eastern Front in 1945, although he estimates that 2/3 of these casualties can be attributed to the Eastern Front. **Overall he estimated losses for the entire war on the Eastern front at 4 million and in the West 1 million**.[32]”_ That’s great. Then bring _that_ up, not how many poor schnooks you sent to their deaths with a commissar behind them pointing a gun at their backs. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/87 "2016-12-03T00:03:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s great. Then bring _that_ up, not how many poor schnooks you sent to their deaths with a commissar behind them pointing a gun at their backs. And making a little list. Returned POWs placed in concentration camps. Poland, the reason the damn war began forced into the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/88 "2016-12-03T23:08:39Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Me too. I would consider the photos nearly equally famous, with a slight edge to the Iwo Jima photo. > > The number of people chiming in to say that they don’t recognize the Reichstag photo is jaw dropping. > > People, this is probably in the top 3 of iconic images from the bloodiest conflict in the history of the world and you don’t recognize it? Nope. Sorry to disappoint you, but, NO, I don’t recognize it. Because, as I and several others have said, we didn’t see it. There’s no point in getting upset about it and blaming us. We don’t control what we didn’t see and don’t know about. We’re not saying that it’s not important, or not iconic, or dismissing it. We never heard of it. End of story. And, this being the Dope, it’s not as if we’re a bunch of uneducated yokels. As I and others have started, we’ve read a lot of history. We’ve perused books of WWII photos. If that image ever showed up in any of them, it didn’t register. This is, if anything, a statement about what American media covers. Even if I hadn’t read about WWII, I’d have seen that image on television. It showed up on the news, in movies. The image was transformed into a statue that I’ve seen countless times in Washington, D.C. I have seen the Reichstag image — nowhere. You can claim that American don’t car about any culture or history but their own, but the truth is that we’re familiar with what is often presented to us, and the news and entertainment industries, not to mention those writing textbooks, often do not put more images and history from elsewhere into the mix of what we read and watch. It used to be that it was hard to obtain news and media that originated outside the country – you’d have to go to stores specializing in out-of-town newspapers and magazines. now you can get it on your computer, You can still get BBC America on Cable, although it’s a pity that Al Jazeera America shut down last April. I have to admit that I rarely cruise the sites. I do try to obtain information from offshore, but perhaps not as zealously as I should. It doesn’t guarantee that I’ll find everything. But there will still be things that I do not see. This was one of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/89 "2016-12-04T04:51:27Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And, this being the Dope, it’s not as if we’re a bunch of uneducated yokels. As I and others have started, we’ve read a lot of history. We’ve perused books of WWII photos. If that image ever showed up in any of them, it didn’t register. > > This is, if anything, a statement about what American media covers. Even if I hadn’t read about WWII, I’d have seen that image on television. It showed up on the news, in movies. The image was transformed into a statue that I’ve seen countless times in Washington, D.C. I have seen the Reichstag image — nowhere. I have seen the Reichstag photo, but the Iwo Jima flag _at least_ ten times as much. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/90 "2016-12-04T20:04:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The United States military first engaged the Nazi troops on November 8, 1942, in Operation Torch in North Africa. Being highly interested in WWII (an American who has definitely seen the Reichstag photo, though dubious anyone even in the English speaking world outside the US has really seen it _as much_ as the Iwo image, as opposed to ‘knowing they are supposed to’ find the two equally famous…) I must nitpick. 🙂 If it’s ‘the US military’ the USN destroyer Reuben James was sunk by the German sub U-552 October 31, 1941 while escorting a merchant convoy headed to the UK: the USN had become a virtual combatant in the Atlantic by then, before Pearl Harbor. USN air and naval units often engaged German submarines (and sank some) between PH and November 8, 1942, and US Army air units shot down some German planes and bombed German occupied Europe as well as flying missions in support of the British ground forces in the Western Desert. Also, the ground opposition for the November 8 landings in North Africa was purely by French units obeying the orders of the Vichy govt. Allied propaganda of the time called them ‘Nazi forces’ but that wasn’t entirely fair or accurate. German subs and a/c launched attacks on Allied shipping supporting the North Africa landings though within a few days. US Army ground units first engaged German ground units in significant combat in a tank battle at Chouigui Pass in Tunisia November 26, 1942 during the Anglo-US ‘Race for Tunis’, though US Army units had skirmished with German reconnaissance patrols, fired artillery, and come under German air attack in the immediately preceding days. US and for that matter British ground efforts against the Germans were both minor in the Soviet view though until at least the North Europe campaign of 1944-45. The war wasn’t all about ground forces (leave it aside to debate how much). But in terms of numbers of ground divisions engaged the Soviets were within reason to view direct Western Allied ground efforts, aside from the defeat of France before the USSR even entered the war, as relatively small scale till the final months of the war, including the campaign in Italy as well as that in North Africa. It wasn’t just a matter of who entered the war first, in their view. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/91 "2016-12-04T20:38:50Z")
Depending on your definition of ‘engaged’ the earliest American/German combat engagement I can recall is on [September 4 1941](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Greer_(DD-145)#The_Greer_incident.2C_September_1941), when the _USS Greer_ engaged _U-652_, but with little effect. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/92 "2016-12-05T03:54:08Z")
I asked both Bing and Google to show me the “most iconic photo of world war 2” and neither spat out the soviet picture. [Bing](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=most%20iconic%20photo%20of%20world%20war%202&qs=n&form=QBIRMH&pq=most%20iconic%20photo%20of%20world%20war%202&sc=1-32&sp=-1&sk=) [Google](https://www.google.com/search?q=most+iconic+photo+of+ww2&biw=1536&bih=754&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif58S7ktzQAhUX0mMKHfN1DBEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=most+iconic+photo+of+world+war+2) ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/93 "2016-12-05T05:06:32Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > What makes it “in the top 3”? > > In U.S. media, including U.S. textbooks, it’s NOT one of the more commonly-encountered photos. Raising the flag at Iwo Jima, the U.S.S. Arizona at Pearl Harbor, the Big Three at Casablanca and/or Yalta, Roosevelt giving a fireside chat, and for the European theater St. Paul’s during the Blitz, the gates at Auschwitz, and any of several shots of troops wading ashore at Normandy are **far** better-known. These are the images I’ve seen over and over since I was a small child, so they’re the ones that immediately invoke a response. For that matter, Churchill giving his “V” sign, MacArthur returning to the Phillipines, multiple shots of the Nuremberg rallies, and [these](http://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/images/stories/courses/boy-with-hands-up-400px.jpg) [Holocaust photos](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/05/article-0-033365DF0000044D-985_468x573.jpg) are more famous by far in the U.S. than the Reichstag photo. It’s just the reality Americans can relate far more to British and Jewish culture than Soviet culture. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/94 "2016-12-05T13:17:41Z")
I am neither American nor European, WWII is _not_ my historic area of interest, and I would say the Iwo Jima one is way more iconic. **drewder** makes a good point in post #92, and I also think it’s interesting to see the difference between doing a GIS\* on “[Reichstag flag raising parody](https://www.google.co.za/search?q=Reichstag+flag+raising+parody&num=50&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7sr38kN3QAhUmKcAKHVpCBDEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=966)” and “[Iwo Jima flag raising parody](https://www.google.co.za/search?q=Iwo+Jima+flag+raising+parody&num=50&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitzcaakd3QAhWqK8AKHcx6A8YQ_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=966)” Note that there are Iwo Jima parodies in the first search but very few Reichstag parodies (I can only see one, where the _serp i molot_ has been replaced with an Islamic star+crescent. I don’t count the [Lego recreation](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/26/b8/61/26b8612e27363826cd7620eb2081d804.jpg)as parody.). I see no Reichstag parodies in the second one. Lots of different variations on the Iwo Jima one, though. - I’m aware that GIS will return different results for different users based on personalization algorithms, regions etc… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/95 "2016-12-05T13:23:47Z")
Oh, forgot to add - I was aware of both images before this poll. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/96 "2016-12-05T18:29:05Z")
My understanding is that both images were reconstructions for the camera, as well. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/97 "2016-12-05T18:37:15Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I asked both Bing and Google to show me the “most iconic photo of world war 2” and neither spat out the soviet picture. > > [Bing](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=most%20iconic%20photo%20of%20world%20war%202&qs=n&form=QBIRMH&pq=most%20iconic%20photo%20of%20world%20war%202&sc=1-32&sp=-1&sk=) > > [Google](https://www.google.com/search?q=most+iconic+photo+of+ww2&biw=1536&bih=754&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif58S7ktzQAhUX0mMKHfN1DBEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=most+iconic+photo+of+world+war+2) Well, the Google one does, well down on the page. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/98 "2016-12-05T18:38:16Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > My understanding is that both images were reconstructions for the camera, as well. The jury is out on the Iwo Jima one, there’s a lot of discussion. But the Reichstag one was 100% staged, thats not even a flag, it’s a tablecloth. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/99 "2016-12-05T18:58:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Japanese had been told that Americans were little more than savages who, given the chance, would pillage the country and kill everyone, Mongol-style. > > MacArthur was, well, rather decidedly not a savage. He ran Japan like a decent man, trying honestly to rebuild the country, improve the lot of its citizenry, and treat its people with respect, so the impression of him was extremely positive not only because he deserved a positive impression, but because it was a much better treatment than most Japanese expected. MacArthur was certainly instrumental in ensuring Emperor Hirohito was allowed to remain on the throne and spared indignity, which did a lot to keep things smooth. MacArthur also got cooperation from the Japanese government institutions by letting them pretty much run themselves, which they understandably appreciated; he was not interested in getting up in their faces about details, and that worked in his favor. So such Japanese authority figures as there were further supported him. > > Exacerbating that effect, he opinion of many historians is that the Japanese, at the time very culturally conditioned to think in authoritarian terms, tended to transfer to MacArthur a sort of “surrogate Emperor” hero worship aspect as well - a sort of innate deference to the top authority figure that existed there to an extent it really doesn’t in a Western democracy (and, to be honest, doesn’t exist so much in Japan anymore.) My grandfather was on Macarthur’s staff (and my dad was raised in Japan for those years). So you had accompanied station, kids interacting, etc. We have several gifts from the royal family due to bridge tournaments my grandparents ran for top US officers and highly placed Japanese guests. So it seems that while it was occupation forces - it was done in a way to fully integrated and part of the community. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480/100 "2016-12-05T19:06:09Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > My grandfather was on Macarthur’s staff … Hey so was my Dad! But during the war, not so much the Occupation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-photo-of-the-reichstag-flag-more-famous-than-the-iwo-jima-flag/773480.md?page=6)