# IS the phrase "I don't see color" offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234 "2017-10-30T16:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/101 "2017-11-02T07:05:25Z")
If you can’t see skin color without making assumptions, the answer is to stop making assumptions, not to stop seeing skin color. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/102 "2017-11-02T07:19:21Z")
As a non-USA citizen, I was not familiar with the phrase “I don’t see color” and its usage. At first sight it seemed to me quite innocuous but after reading the posts I realized it may sound at least condescending when uttered by someone who’s racially privileged. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/103 "2017-11-02T08:56:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, I don’t have a low opinion of people. It’s that racism is too big and too deep for me to believe that anyone can declare themselves free of it. It’s a basic fact of our existence for at least 500 years. It’s soaked into us. That’s a failure of imagination on your part. > [@](#): > > Anyone who declares himself or herself free of it is either ignorant of the depth of racism or is just fooling himself or herself. That doesn’t mean that that person is the worst racist in the world, or even is a bad person. It’s just someone who either doesn’t understand the depth of the problem or is too quick to declare himself or herself free of something that is basically impossible for us to be completely free of. not a bad person eh? but certainly one you are happy to pin the label “racist” to without necessarily having any evidence for that. It stinks of “original sin”, something else I don’t sign up to. > [@](#): > > Racism is simply not about whether any particular individual is racist or non-racist. For any given individual, of course it is and if you have enough individuals able to say they are not racist and they will fight against racism then you have a better society. > [@](#): > > It’s about how society and culture and institutions are structured. Anyone who is thinking in terms of “am I racist or am I not racist” is simply missing the point. I cannot see why you have a such an aversion in allowing decent, non-racist people to assert that fact. Is their behaviour not a good example? Surely trumpeting the fact that non-racist people exist provides a example of progress? > [@](#): > > As soon as you say it, you want people to accept it as a label or description for you, so, yes, you are seeking it as a status marker No, like “atheist” it is pretty much a non-label, one I don’t need to assert until such time as someone else (you in this case) are trying to label me as a racist. I’ll then _tell_ you (I don’t need your approval) that no, I’m not a racist. > [@](#): > > I do not accept “not racist” as a status for an individual person. It’s like saying “It’s blue o’clock” or “The post office is soggy miles east of here.” That does not mean I believe “everyone is racist.” It means that “not racist” is a status that has no meaning. You think that “racist” is a suitable status for an individual but that the reverse has no meaning? Then you are playing a meaningless word game and anything I say is pointless. You are tying yourself up in semantic and logical knots in order to avoid allowing for the possibility that someone can truly not be a racist. Do you apply the same logic to the terms “not-criminal, not-homophobic, not-religious, not-misogynistic” etc? Are those also statuses that have no meaning? > [@](#): > > Racism is a cultural condition and a characteristic of a society and its institutions. So long as racism is structurally part of the institutions we interact with and live with we are part of a racist system. Which is true to a greater or lesser extent of certain societies but does not damn all that live within it to be properly labelled as “racist” It demeans those who are not racist and cheapens to term to the point of irrelevance. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/104 "2017-11-02T12:12:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Teachers impose harsher punishments on black students. Medical professionals are more reluctant to give black people pain killers, because of an inherent belief that they can tolerate more pain than white people. Both black and white cops perceive more danger from black men than white men. Babies are less trustful of people of a different race. > > This is not because they are bad people. It’s not because (most of them) explicitly adhere to a racist ideology. It’s because of the entire society they have grown up in. They are perpetuating racism, but there is likely nothing specifically racist about any particular belief or attitude of any one of these individuals. If asked, the majority would say something like “I am not a racist” because they genuinely don’t perceive racism in themselves. > > So to actually make progress on racism, you have to get beyond this lane of thinking. It’s not about you. It’s not about a label or status that is given to you. It’s about the totality of the society we live in. Concern about whether “I am a racist” does nothing to help make things better and likely keeps things from getting better. > > It doesn’t matter whether you think you are a non racist as a matter of status. That doesn’t prevent you from taking actions, making decisions, playing roles that perpetuate the harms of racism in society. Look at your first paragraph. It seems you think that a group average tells us accurate information about an individual that belongs to that group . Don’t you see how that could be problematic? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/105 "2017-11-02T13:02:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Look at your first paragraph. It seems you think that a group average tells us accurate information about an individual that belongs to that group . Don’t you see how that could be problematic? I think he is asserting that everybody is racist, no matter what group they belong to. Black and white teachers alike treat black students more harshly, black and white cops alike see black people as more threatening, etc. Thus blacks and whites are alike racist. > [@Ascenray](#): > > Babies are less trustful of people of a different race. > > This is not because they are bad people. It’s not because (most of them) explicitly adhere to a racist ideology. It’s because of the entire society they have grown up in. Can you explain how babies have grown up in a racist society? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/106 "2017-11-02T13:36:51Z")
It is totally stupid to say you don’t see color when its so obvious. At work I’m often the only white guy on my tour. I know it. They know it. Sometimes we joke about it. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/107 "2017-11-02T15:15:10Z")
All the other arguments to the side (not that they should be put to the side but just for the sake of this point) saying “I try to see each person as an individual, regardless of color” suggests that the speaker is humble and acknowledges the possibility of their own fallibility; “I don’t see color” sounds like an arrogant asshole patting themselves on the back. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/108 "2017-11-02T15:17:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is possible to be unintentionally racist just as it is possible to be an unintentional thief or unintentional rapist. > > However if most rape was unintentional rape then the problem would be pretty much solved. In light of current events I am absolutely gobsmacked by that comment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/109 "2017-11-02T15:28:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think he is asserting that everybody is racist, no matter what group they belong to. Black and white teachers alike treat black students more harshly, black and white cops alike see black people as more threatening, etc. Thus blacks and whites are alike racist. > > Can you explain how babies have grown up in a racist society? I’m too lazy to look it up right this second but I believe all of the above is borne out by scientific study. In the US, blacks and whites (and others) all absorb the prevalent anti-black bias. In order to be “race-neutral” you would have to be constantly checking yourself to correct that bias. The point about the babies is that human beings seem to have an instinctive bias towards people who look like themselves. Seems like a reasonable adaptation for our distant ancestors to have had. In modern US, as babies grow and absorb the dominant social messaging, that bias is channeled towards white people and against black people. Think about this: close your eyes and picture an “average person”. Most Americans will be picturing a white man. Whenever a movie or tv show wants to portray an “average Joe” it’s going to be a white man. But statistically speaking, we should all be picturing a dark skinned woman. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/110 "2017-11-02T15:53:38Z")
I’d still like to see a cite for it’s use pre-colbert, and non-ironically. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/111 "2017-11-02T16:08:40Z")
> [@epolo](#): > > But statistically speaking, we should all be picturing a dark skinned woman. I would be interested in the basis for this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/112 "2017-11-02T16:41:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That just means that race is just one of your problems—whether the biggest or the smallest, who knows. You’re just a terrible human being. I disagree. I’ve got 99 problems, but race isn’t one. I do honesty try my best to hate them all equally. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/113 "2017-11-02T17:05:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That just means that race is just one of your problems—whether the biggest or the smallest, who knows. You’re just a terrible human being. It’s a fine line when a poster characterizes themselves in a specific derogatory way and someone else simply repeats the same characterization in response, but this goes too far. This is a warning for personal insults. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/114 "2017-11-02T17:12:52Z")
> [@epolo](#): > > I’m too lazy to look it up right this second but I believe all of the above is borne out by scientific study. In the US, blacks and whites (and others) all absorb the prevalent anti-black bias. In order to be “race-neutral” you would have to be constantly checking yourself to correct that bias. > > The point about the babies is that human beings seem to have an instinctive bias towards people who look like themselves. Seems like a reasonable adaptation for our distant ancestors to have had. In modern US, as babies grow and absorb the dominant social messaging, that bias is channeled towards white people and against black people. > > Think about this: close your eyes and picture an “average person”. > > Most Americans will be picturing a white man. Whenever a movie or tv show wants to portray an “average Joe” it’s going to be a white man. But statistically speaking, we should all be picturing a dark skinned woman. > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Why? It’s not like a random person is exposed to the whole world and then averages the results. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/115 "2017-11-02T17:25:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There are schools named after King? Well, there are plenty of schools named after Lee and Stuart and Jefferson Davis. There is a holiday on King’s birthday? Well, guess what, in Alabama, that’s also Robert E. Lee day. A black president was elected for two terms? Well, the next election was won by a candidate who overtly appealed to racist resentments. Black people have been popular entertainers? Well, why do black performers still find it difficult to find roles, the vast majority of which are reserved only to white performers? Of course there are plenty of schools named after Confederate figures, they are from a time when Confederates were revered. Now schools are not named after confederates, they are routinely named after black people and civil rights figures. If I gave you $10 for every school named after a confederate in the last 20 years and you gave me $1 for every school named after a black person who would end up with the most money. Me, and it would not be close. That is because society has changed, your failure to acknowledge the obvious discredits your case. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/116 "2017-11-02T17:28:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I do not accept “not racist” as a status for an individual person. It’s like saying “It’s blue o’clock” or “The post office is soggy miles east of here.” That does not mean I believe “everyone is racist.” It means that “not racist” is a status that has no meaning. > > Racism is a cultural condition and a characteristic of a society and its institutions. So long as racism is structurally part of the institutions we interact with and live with we are part of a racist system. > > So in other words, seeking to be accepted as “not racist” must mean that one is _not_ being constantly vigilant. What a black and white world you live in (clunky pun very much intended) You again seem incapable of accepting that someone is quite easily able to do both, why is that such a difficult concept for you? [/QUOTE] If no one can be not racist, then it must mean everyone is racist. That is just simple logic. If MLK was a racist and so was George Wallace then the word no longer has any meaning. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/117 "2017-11-02T17:43:13Z")
> [@epolo](#): > > I’m too lazy to look it up right this second but I believe all of the above is borne out by scientific study. In the US, blacks and whites (and others) all absorb the prevalent anti-black bias. In order to be “race-neutral” you would have to be constantly checking yourself to correct that bias. > > The point about the babies is that human beings seem to have an instinctive bias towards people who look like themselves. Seems like a reasonable adaptation for our distant ancestors to have had. In modern US, as babies grow and absorb the dominant social messaging, that bias is channeled towards white people and against black people. > > Think about this: close your eyes and picture an “average person”. > > Most Americans will be picturing a white man. Whenever a movie or tv show wants to portray an “average Joe” it’s going to be a white man. But statistically speaking, we should all be picturing a dark skinned woman. > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Since you are too lazy to look up the science I will share it with you.[Black teenagers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263756/) have higher self esteem than those of other races. [Black women](https://www.glamour.com/story/black-women-more-confident-other-groups-females-survey) are more likely to describe themselves as confident, successful, and beautiful. [Black men](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/margie-omero/stress-levels-poll_b_1231444.html) have higher self esteem than other races. The idea that society is sending a message that blacks are bad and that blacks are absorbing it is totally false. If you mean the average American then the average person would be a white woman, if the average person in the world it would be an asian woman. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/118 "2017-11-02T17:59:11Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I would be interested in the basis for this claim. It’s tough to do detailed research and citations on my phone at work. But I would direct you to the Wikipedia page on implicit stereotypes ( [Implicit stereotype - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype) ) for a pretty decent grounding in what folks in this thread are talking about. As to my comment about picturing a dark skinned woman, I think I was conflating a number of things in my head. Including: A Nat Geo article with an image of what an “average American” will look like in 2050 The fact that the US sex ratio is very slightly tilted to women (globally it goes the other way though) A claim that the modal human is now a Han Chinese man The intuitive sense that about half of humanity is Asian and another seventh or so African and therefore “whites” even broadly defined can’t be more than a third and even within that group, the average skin tone probably is darker than most Hollywood leading men Even in the US “whites” are only 60% of the population, so the “average” is likely to be darker than white Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/119 "2017-11-02T18:10:52Z")
Admittedly not super scientific but I just did a quick scan of the first fifty results when I did a google image search for “movie poster”. I looked for the focus of the image even if there were multiple people or items shown. Here’s my breakdown: White men: 48% White women: 24% Black men: 2% Black women: 0% Other (human): 0% Other (non human): 16% There appeared to be more movies starring cars than black people. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234/120 "2017-11-02T19:01:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > If no one can be not racist, then it must mean everyone is racist. That is just simple logic. If MLK was a racist and so was George Wallace then the word no longer has any meaning. [/QUOTE] Of course it does. Everyone is, to some degree or another, unhealthy or unhappy or deceptive (or healthy or happy or honest), but that doesn’t mean that the words don’t have meaning, that we can’t meaningfully discuss to what degree these things are true for ourselves and other individuals, or strive to adjust our own behavior to grow/mitigate these characteristics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-phrase-i-dont-see-color-offensive/800234.md?page=7)