# Is the "pick up artist" movement an inherently good or bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932 "2018-04-23T20:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/61 "2018-04-24T01:34:40Z")
Good or bad depends on what the goal is. If it’s to get laid, then it’s good if it works, in the same way that hiring a prostitute is good. Your choice if you want to put in the time and effort for the “game” or just shell out the $. If your goal is anything else, it’s counterproductive and potentially damaging to all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/62 "2018-04-24T01:34:42Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah, but developing confidence is a long process. It comes from accomplishment and hard work and reflection and introspection and charity and humble pie and so on and so forth. In other words, it doesn’t come from doing a series of tasks that imitate someone _else’s_ confidence. I really don’t think that you can make sweeping generalizations about how people do or don’t develop confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/63 "2018-04-24T01:37:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I really don’t think that you can make sweeping generalizations about how people do or don’t develop confidence. Huh. So that must mean that the sweeping generalizations used by PUA are full of shit too? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/64 "2018-04-24T01:42:02Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I really don’t think that you can make sweeping generalizations about how people do or don’t develop confidence. Noted. I forgot I was in GD, as I rarely post here. I should have said, that is my _opinion_ about confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/65 "2018-04-24T01:49:51Z")
And I think your opinion is, _generally,_ true. But I also do think that the application of focused teaching can accomplish a great deal. Millions of peoples’ lives are influenced every day by things like therapy and religion and even advertising. Their perceptions of the world are altered. To me, it stands to reason that people’s levels of confidence, and their social behaviors, can be drastically altered by someone who knows what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/66 "2018-04-24T01:53:32Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It doesn’t really foster anything beyond getting laid, and promotes a whole bunch of methods that are actively damaging to other people, deceptive and selfish. Is it “actively damaging to other people”? Serious question – I’m directing this at that small minority of SheDopers who might, at some point in their lives, in a momentary lapse in their habitual level of Doper coolheadedness and mature judgment, let themselves be gabbed into bed.\* Would you say the experience damaged you, emotionally or otherwise? How did you feel about it afterwards? - I’m not suggesting our most excellent DopeWomyn are prudes, of course. But I have no doubt most of them, when ever they do allow themselves to be seduced, do it the respectable way, i.e., by getting shitfaced drunk first. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/67 "2018-04-24T01:56:54Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah, but developing confidence is a long process. It comes from accomplishment and hard work and reflection and introspection and charity and humble pie and so on and so forth… _else’s_ confidence. And did I mention a big dick? Yeah, I meant to work ‘big dick’ onto that list somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/68 "2018-04-24T02:01:17Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > And did I mention a big dick? Yeah, I meant to work ‘big dick’ onto that list somewhere. We will take it as assumed that all DopeMales have big dicks, and discuss this aspect of the matter no further. Understood? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/69 "2018-04-24T02:11:13Z")
It’s an inherently bad thing because it is selfish, and also treats women as objects, as game tokens. Also, I’m sorry, but those Commandments of “Poon”? Classy! “XIV. Fuck her good” So tasteful. I watched this BBC show called, I think, “Secrets of the Sexes”, where they had a big speed-date thing and, amongst scientists each trying pet theories for matching up people, they also had a couple of PUAs - and the PUAs were abysmal. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/70 "2018-04-24T02:15:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Also, I’m sorry, but those Commandments of “Poon”? Classy! “XIV. Fuck her good” So tasteful. What’s so tasteless about wanting to fuck someone good, and wanting to be fucked good? Good sex is essential to any relationship whether it’s long term or short term. You don’t think that advising men to be good lovers sexually is good advice? Do you think that women _don’t_ want to be fucked good? Yeah, the guy is crude, but he’s not writing a Hallmark card. It’s supposed to be advice for sexually-minded men to read. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/71 "2018-04-24T02:54:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What’s so tasteless about wanting to fuck someone good, and wanting to be fucked good? Because it’s shitty grammar! > [@](#): > > Good sex is essential to any relationship whether it’s long term or short term. I disagree. > [@](#): > > You don’t think that advising men to be good lovers sexually is good advice? Telling men to “Fuck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids” is not advising good sex. It’s an Eddie Murphy skit. There’s no actual advice there, it’s all cocksmanship. > [@](#): > > Do you think that women _don’t_ want to be fucked good? No, I’m pretty sure they’d rather be fucked _well_ > [@](#): > > Yeah, the guy is crude, but he’s not writing a Hallmark card. It’s supposed to be advice for sexually-minded men to read. I’m sexually-minded, and I can do without that level of crudeness. Like I said, it’s a comedy skit - a dated one. Guy’s thinking “Oh I got this bitch now” Also, I think the guy should be strung up in the desert by his balls for the way he misused the Litany against Fear in his misogynistic spew. but I know that’s my issue, not a general one. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/72 "2018-04-24T03:35:35Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] Every time I hear about people being judged by their looks, on this board and elsewhere, I always wonder why people put so much stock into looks, when it is clear that ‘swagger’ is what really counts\*. I have known both women and men who are not lookers in the traditional sense but can absolutely break your heart with that vague, intangible, ethereal…thang that they got. [/quote] Why do you think “cool” is something you are born with and can’t be learned? That “vague, intangible, ethereal thang” you are referring to is really just a programmed response to certain behaviors and indicators. Behaviors can be learned. Of course, women don’t like the idea of that magical connection with the charming guy they just met being a learned routine. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/73 "2018-04-24T03:49:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What’s so tasteless about wanting to fuck someone good, and wanting to be fucked good? Good sex is essential to any relationship whether it’s long term or short term. You don’t think that advising men to be good lovers sexually is good advice? > > Do you think that women _don’t_ want to be fucked good? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Telling men to “Fuck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids” is not advising good sex. It’s an Eddie Murphy skit. There’s no actual advice there, it’s all cocksmanship. Agreed. Come on now. Suggestions on how to get better in bed (I apologize for how Cosmo-y as that sounds) would be advice. “Fuck her good” is a statement of the staggeringly obvious. The profanity is included to distract you from the stupidity. It’s the equivalent of “run fast” as advice to a wannabe Olympian. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/74 "2018-04-24T03:53:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why do you think “cool” is something you are born with and can’t be learned? > > That “vague, intangible, ethereal thang” you are referring to is really just a programmed response to certain behaviors and indicators. Behaviors can be learned. > > Of course, women don’t like the idea of that magical connection with the charming guy they just met being a learned routine. I promise you. This woman could care less how one develops that cool ass steez that some boys have, especially that bad boy edge. If he can learn that shit in the book, then I know a bunch of corn balls who are getting that book for their birthdays. I wish I believed it were that easy. The truth is closer to those jokers I see at work, walking like George Jefferson, making a damn fool of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/75 "2018-04-24T03:55:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Agreed. Come on now. Suggestions on how to get better in bed (I apologize for how Cosmo-y as that sounds) would be advice. “Fuck her good” is a statement of the staggeringly obvious. The profanity is included to distract you from the stupidity. It’s the equivalent of “run fast” as advice to a wannabe Olympian. I guess you aren’t going to buy my patented “be charming and confident” dating advice, either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/76 "2018-04-24T03:56:27Z")
This is mainly marketed at socially inept and/or awkward guys. I think it works in that it makes these guys more socially comfortable by giving these guys basic social skills and routines to practice. When these guys are more comfortable socially they get more success with the ladies. What’s wrong with guys who are more socially comfortable? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/77 "2018-04-24T03:59:31Z")
I have some advice on how to lose weight you all might want to hear, it’s all right there in my book, for the low low price of $24.95. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/78 "2018-04-24T04:35:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I have some advice on how to lose weight you all might want to hear, it’s all right there in my book, for the low low price of $24.95. 1. Work out your current food budget for the week. 2. Divide by $24.95. 3. Round up the result to the nearest integer _n._ 4. Buy _n_ copies of my book and go without food that week. 5. Repeat until target weight is reached. Everybody wins! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/79 "2018-04-24T04:38:20Z")
I’m going to vote “inherently good” - here’s why: Think of it like instruction for “How to get a job - good interviewing techniques.” You want a job, they want to hire someone. You want to give them a reason to hire you, they want you to give them a reason to hire you. You also want to avoid giving them a reason to reject you, they don’t want you to give them a reason to reject you. In the class “How to get a job - good interviewing techniques” they teach you how to give them a reason to hire you, and how to avoid giving them a reason to reject you. Manipulative? Perhaps, a little. But is it manipulation - or simply a skill? You could write the same scenario for instruction on “How to pick up girls.” You want to pick up a girl, (an here is a key) the girl wants to be picked up. You want to give them a reason to accept you, (also key) they want a reason to accept you. You want to avoid giving them a reason to reject you, (again, key) they don’t want you to give them a reason to reject you. There is certainly an element of ritual in all this, from both sides. But, really - it can be a skill, like any other. And like any skill, could be taught. Especially for those that are completely lacking in the skill, it can improve a part of their lives. And for their “targets”, make them more acceptable in the ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/80 "2018-04-24T04:51:05Z")
On the plus side, programs like this help guys with crippling shyness get out there a bit more. On the minus side, all that counts is hooking up with ‘tens.’ Actually treating women like human beings or people you want to do anything with but fuck for free is rarely mentioned, so as a few other posters mentioned, once they actually want a girlfriend they’re SOL. They’re planning their strategy and conversation then just finding someone to fill in the blanks. It gets a bit trickier when the woman comes before the plan. On both the plus and minus side, these guys will get exactly what they deserve and screw other guys over in the process. 9/10 of the rules in The Game depend on making a woman question herself. Negging, not approaching the hottest girl in a group… I think Mystery or Neil Strauss actually spells it out, but if they don’t, the message is that you need to cut a girl down to get her to consider you, or else she might not fall for your stupid outfit or lame lines. So while there are clearly some dumb women who’ll fall for these systems, they’re not going to make great long-term girlfriends, either, unless you’re attracted to someone who’s constantly worried they’re not good enough for you, asks if they’re ugly, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932.md?page=5)