# Is the "pick up artist" movement an inherently good or bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932 "2018-04-23T20:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/161 "2018-04-25T02:49:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Success makes a man attractive to women, but that does not mean that all women will have a one night stand with a successful man. [shrug] Is there any kind of man with whom all women **will** have a one-night stand? Doubtful. Ms. A scorns what Ms. B likes, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/162 "2018-04-25T02:52:22Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > A “pick up artist,” without high status who is successful in picking up women will be a man who is physically attractive, who is able to feign high status, and who is able to tell which women are attracted to him, and which women are not. It can also be a man who is able to take that concept of fame and social approval that makes women sleep with rock stars, and scale it down to a microcosm level. This is where the whole theory comes in that the guy who will get laid is the guy with the herd of friends and followers around him. Walk into a bar with five or six hangers-on all laughing at your jokes and gazing at you for approval whenever they say anything, and you will broadcast that you are ‘alpha’ within that small social setting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/163 "2018-04-25T03:25:15Z")
Hijack: Do women still have such things as “reputations,” such that you would want to avoid being known as a “slut”? Or is that just a high-school thing these days? (Or is it even that?) ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/164 "2018-04-25T03:31:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hijack: Do women still have such things as “reputations,” such that you would want to avoid being known as a “slut”? Or is that just a high-school thing these days? (Or is it even that?) I would say they do, but some women don’t care. I think these things are always harsher in high school and the like, but it’s the kind of thing that can always be brought up when you are trying to knock a woman down a peg. It depends a lot on the group you run with though; I can’t imagine seriously being called a slut by any of my friends, or it being taken seriously if I was, but I hang out with a weird group. I am acquaintances with women (in their mid- to late- thirties) who call each other that and mean it as a grave insult (and it is taken as such). In short, as with all things involving people, it depends. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/165 "2018-04-25T03:39:57Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s always changing. It depends on the fashions. Really, right now, women tend to want Ronnie Gardocki. Do women know who Ronnie Gardocki is? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/166 "2018-04-25T06:32:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Do women know who Ronnie Gardocki is? I mean that Ronnie Gardocki, though an obscure example, is a very good model for what seems to be the prevailing ideal type of man right now. He’s handsome, but nothing about him looks “done-up.” He wears a neatly trimmed beard, but still a thick enough beard that it broadcasts his ruggedness. In general, he is a rugged guy. But he isn’t a brute. He’s soft spoken but his voice is firm, consistent, and confident. He radiates unshakable confidence in pretty much every way. His body language, tone of voice and facial expressions are all unfailingly confident. He’s extremely brave, physically powerful, and makes a woman feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/167 "2018-04-25T07:00:45Z")
Jesus goddamned christ. If you are not a performance artist, start telling people that you are and least get rich that way. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/168 "2018-04-25T07:05:42Z")
What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/169 "2018-04-25T07:10:55Z")
What I mean is that it is hard to believe that your generality-bordering-on-universality when it comes to drawing conclusions about gender relations comes without a tongue firmly in cheek. I mean, you just said “he makes a woman feel safe.” I learned later, on the internet, that you were talking about a television police officer. I think that your perspective might be just a little bit lacking in nuance. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/170 "2018-04-25T07:16:06Z")
Oh. Re: Ronnie Gardocki. I was being tongue in cheek - an in-joke for _Shield_ fans - and I was hoping someone who didn’t know who he was would look him up. Towards the end of a show his date nearly gets killed walking back to his apartment in a drive-by attempt on his life, then bitches him out and leaves him. Maybe too obscure of an injoke. I thought what you were saying about performance artists was a referance to the pickup artists…not sure whether you were directing it at my post. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/171 "2018-04-25T07:23:21Z")
OK. But you still brought him up and said all that about his beard-to-ruggedness ration. And said that every single man would rather go fishing than go to a club, and that you don’t know a single man who cares whether his date puts effort into looking good (or possibly about putting effort into himself looking good; it wasn’t clear but the second makes more you-sense, at least). Unless these are all very tiny in-jokes, I still find it hard to believe that you subscribe to these views. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/172 "2018-04-25T07:50:35Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > And said that every single man would rather go fishing than go to a club, and that you don’t know a single man who cares whether his date puts effort into looking good Whoa whoa. Hold on a second. First of all, I want to make it clear, I’m not trying to just pig-headedly state that my view of things is the one true objective truth. Maybe I should have used more "I think"s and "it seems to me"s to qualify what I’ve said, but no, I do not, in fact think that _every single_ man out there is one way or another way. If I _seemed_ like I was trying to say that, at any prior time in this thread, then right here is my refutation of it. Yes, I was speaking in generalities. I imagine that everyone does it from time to time. Second of all, I never said that I don’t know anyone who cares whether _his date_ puts effort into looking good. Those words have a specific meaning. They don’t just mean “a girl.” Yes, if you are on a _date,_ you both want to look good, _I_ think. Going out in public for any occasion, in my view, warrants some spiffing up, for both partners. If I made a reservation for two at Peter Luger’s and my girlfriend was wearing her gym clothes when I picked her up, then…I would be peeved. And hungry. I’m not talking about a _date._ I’m saying - and yes, here we go with generalizations again - maybe I should preface it with I _would guess_ - that: The guy who sees a good looking woman jogging down the street doesn’t care about her nails, hairstyle, shoes, or clothes (except that they reveal enough of her body); The guy who sees a good looking group of college girls in short shorts and flip flops walking down campus doesn’t give a shit what color her nails are, what kind of earrings she’s wearing, what kind of perfume she has on, etc. **even sven** was all but saying, “if you’re admiring a woman’s legs and ass, _it’s because of the high heels she is wearing._” I was trying to refute this, because I think it’s an insane thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/173 "2018-04-25T09:20:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The guy who sees a good looking woman jogging down the street doesn’t care about her nails, hairstyle, shoes, or clothes (except that they reveal enough of her body); Define ‘doesn’t care.’ Doesn’t notice? Maybe not consciously. But[this woman](http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/11366823/2/istockphoto_11366823-female-jogger-jumping-on-santa-monica-beach-with-pier.jpg) is basically [this woman](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c0FnaTiJL.jpg) with highlights, longer hair, a tighter outfit, manicured brows and make-up. She might even be wearing a more pleasant deodorant. (I know there will be Dopers here to tell me they prefer woman number two, and I doubt these two women would have drastically different experiences in terms of attention from strangers, but if either stopped into a coffee shop and someone tried to argue that their first impression had nothign to do with grooming or style choices, I’d be a bit skeptical.) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/174 "2018-04-25T09:25:30Z")
The clothing makes 100% of the difference. I think the second girl’s face is attractive and I don’t think the first looks _any_ more attractive _except for the more revealing clothes._ I don’t think that’s a great example. Could a mod move this post AND the one above it that I’m replying to, to my thread in IMHO about whether or not men notice these things? It would fit better there and there clearly is not much discussion about pickup artists left in this thread, as it has seemingly migrated to the other topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/175 "2018-04-25T13:14:11Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Imagine the time before makeup and personal grooming was invented. The Paleolithic? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/176 "2018-04-25T13:31:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It can also be a man who is able to take that concept of fame and social approval that makes women sleep with rock stars, and scale it down to a microcosm level. This is where the whole theory comes in that the guy who will get laid is the guy with the herd of friends and followers around him. Walk into a bar with five or six hangers-on all laughing at your jokes and gazing at you for approval whenever they say anything, and you will broadcast that you are ‘alpha’ within that small social setting. That reminds me of a psychological theory I read of a while back, about why men who behaved in certain ways that most women found boring or outright stupid (such as performing daredevil stunts) are at the same time attractive figures to many women. It’s because one thing that makes men attractive to women is impressing other men. Women tend to be attracted to “alpha males” as you say, and usually the man getting acclaim from other males is just that. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/177 "2018-04-25T13:38:57Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s harder to be a doctor than a pickup artist. A hell of a lot harder. Yet there are these things called medical schools all over the world that teach people to be doctors. Medicine is a science born of logic, investigation and memory. Picking up women, or the overall skill of relating to people, is more of an art. But if you’re a doctor then you don’t need to be a pickup artist. 😃 > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t think the dropout rate at boot camp is very high. I think it’s around 10 percent. I call that a very low proportion when you consider how rigorous it is. Point taken, if those stats are true. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/178 "2018-04-25T13:41:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s because one thing that makes men attractive to women is impressing other men. Women tend to be attracted to “alpha males” as you say, and usually the man getting acclaim from other males is just that. Bingo. I don’t remember a whole lot from _The Game_ but I do recall them talking about this very phenomenon. And it makes perfect sense, logically. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/179 "2018-04-25T13:43:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Men don’t give a shit about dancing. They don’t _enjoy_ bobbing their heads to music so loud that you can’t hear anybody talk. Speak for yourself, dude. This doesn’t even cover half the men I know, never mind “most”. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932/180 "2018-04-25T19:37:11Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > A couple points: > > First, women work their \*asses \*off to get noticed by men. I think it’s beginning to even out some (what with “manscaping” and all) but overall there is just no contest. Anyone who says, “Women just have to stand there and look attractive,” is not only wrong objectively, as referenced above, but has also completely dismissed the amount of work that goes into looking attractive for a woman in our society. So right there, that’s messed up. Uhm, I’ve been hearing that line for years. Back in Los Angeles I actually took out a plus-sized coworker of mine to the Santa Monica pier and it took barely an hour for some guy to come by and strike up a conversation with her. He wasn’t a bum or a psycho (that I could tell), but she wasn’t much into him. It was hardly scientific but it strikes me that the problem is not that women have to work to get a man to approach her; it’s that the men who do, don’t meet her standards. > [@](#): > > And woman who are “10’s” work _even harder_. I’m not saying a lot of them don’t enjoy the game, so to speak, but they work incredibly hard to look as nice as they do (and then are frequently dismissed as “high maintenence”, but that’s a different rant). Women who want to date highly desirable men spend a lot of time and effort on that pursuit, and frankly it pisses me off that low-status men consider this “unfair” and get upset that they can’t bag a high status women simply for existing. See, that whole “low status men are the only guys who see this as unfair” is part of the problem. First of all can you define “low status” for me? I mean, aside from any man who disagrees with you, that is. (Not saying you’re that kind of woman, but “low status” is almost _always_ one of those “code-words”, yaknowwhatimean.) Second of all, plenty of high-status men know it’s unfair, too. They just take advantage of the unfairness instead of grousing about it. Women have legitimate complaints about the unfairness of the dating scene. So do men. We men listen to your complaints; we’re blasted with them 24/7. You should start listening to the men, too. You’re not so great as a gender that you can’t stoop to do that. > [@](#): > > Secondly, a lot of the men who follow this stuff are socially inept, Jesus… that is an _arrogant_ comment. > [@](#): > > to say the least. They never ask out anyone until they are instructed by these Pick Up Artists. Maybe that’s because, like women, they don’t want to get their feelings hurt? Oh yes, I forgot, society dictates that men don’t have a right to be worried about getting their feelings hurt. I sincerely hope you’re not someone who subscribes to that line of thinking. > [@](#): > > They may think it works for them, but that’s because _anything_ would. If you go out and ask every woman you see to have sex, some will say yes. One has to wonder why more women don’t make the first move. I mean, by actually walking up and talking to a guy. > [@](#): > > If you have even a modicum of charm or personal hygiene, you’re going to do even better than that. And again, the more you try it, the less foolish you feel (and look) and the better your success rate will be. So these guys might not feel ripped off, because they now have dates, but the truth is their “Secret Game” is just Dumbo’s feather; they are doing better because they are doing _something_. Wow, I wish this rule applied to women. I’ve been married for 5 and a half years now so someone out there tell me - do most women still wait for the guy to make the first move? They did when I was single. At some point it has to cut both ways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pick-up-artist-movement-an-inherently-good-or-bad-thing/572932.md?page=10)