# Is the Pledge of allegiance inherently automatic invalid **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902 "2014-02-21T19:17:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/21 "2014-02-22T00:28:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > To the best of my knowledge, it is simply a ceremonial thing. From how I read Wiki it was not taken as ceremonial nor meant as such, but through the years the courts have rules it towards that status. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/22 "2014-02-22T01:41:24Z")
Let’s ignore the actual social context of the Pledge that makes it a piece of empty rhetoric and imagine that it’s an actual promise. Suppose, for example, that you swore, “I promise to name all my future children after **Alan Smithee** , the greatest poster in Straight Dope history, whose arguments are always insightful and correct, and whose posts are without error.” Don’t think that when you have a kid that you can get away with naming her Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor just because you found a typo in one of my posts or because you don’t _really_ think I’m the greatest poster in Straight Dope history. When you made the promise, you were implicitly promising that you believed at the time that I was the greatest poster in Straight Dope history and that my arguments are always insightful and my posts without error. Perhaps that part of your promise was a lie, or perhaps you changed your mind when you read the post explaining my fan theory that Dr. Claw is the Tyler Durden-like shadow alter-ego of Inspector Gadget. In neither case would that invalidate the explicit promise to name your loinfruit after me. Therefore, when you make the Pledge of Allegiance, you are implicitly pledging your oath that you believe that the US is a single, indivisible nation under God, and that it contains liberty and justice for everyone. As you point out, that’s almost certainly a lie no matter who says it, but that only exposes the hypocrisy and cynical disregard for truth that form the diseased heart of the Rotary Club and Mrs. Johnsons’s third grade class, it doesn’t mean those third graders can just violate their oath of loyalty to the United States with impunity. That’s the most obvious reading of the Pledge, at least. The Pledge doesn’t actually mention the United States by name. It mentions _the Flag of the United States of America_, and it mentions _the Republic for which it stands_, but which republic is that? Does the flag of the United States of America stand for the United States of America, or does it stand for an ideal version of the United States that does conform to the standards mentioned? It’s almost as plausible to read the pledge as referring to that ideal Republic, with the qualification being intended to spell that out explicitly. If that’s the case, then I suppose that having taken the Pledge, you could feel free to wage war on the corrupt, earthly government of the United States and drape yourself in American flags while doing so, knowing that whatever other crimes you may commit in the course of your bloody terrorist rebellion, at least you won’t have broken your word. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/23 "2014-02-22T02:02:42Z")
I always interpreted “with liberty and justice for all” to be aspirational. Especially since the guy who wrote it was a socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/24 "2014-02-22T02:09:09Z")
The flag stands for both the actual USA and the idealized republic toward which it strives. It is the latter that bears all of those descriptors (one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all). I find the flag aesthetically unappealing. Since I refuse to pledge allegiance to an ugly symbol, I never get as far as the philosophical quibbles. I said it a few thousand times as a kid, but an oath under duress is not binding. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/25 "2014-02-22T02:15:37Z")
It has to be reduced to a mere ceremonial theater in order to let it continue to be a fixture at schools and the such, even setting aside the superfluous “under God” add-on; were it to be actually taken seriously it would say something not entirely comfortable of a society that finds it necessary to ask their kids to swear loyalty every day before starting school. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OTOH, patriotic loyalty is a thing St. Augustine highly recommended to Christians, just so long as they put the City of God before the City of Man. By the time of Augustine, Christianity had become the State Creed so it kind of went together, and patriotic loyalty or at least the affectation thereof was considered a really big thing in Roman culture. At the onset of the religion Paul preached merely being law-abiding dwellers in the land (as it was God’s will that whatever government ruled). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/26 "2014-02-22T03:55:02Z")
I prefer the version that calls criminals a “cowardly and superstitious lot.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/27 "2014-02-23T02:45:41Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > … > > That’s the most obvious reading of the Pledge, at least. The Pledge doesn’t actually mention the United States by name. It mentions _the Flag of the United States of America_, and it mentions _the Republic for which it stands_, but which republic is that? Does the flag of the United States of America stand for the United States of America, or does it stand for an ideal version of the United States that does conform to the standards mentioned? It’s almost as plausible to read the pledge as referring to that ideal Republic, with the qualification being intended to spell that out explicitly… This is the take on it I feel that makes the pledge invalid. Because it is so explicit of what republic it is to with such conditions that the present US government is not, it is either invalidation by the government not living up to their end of the deal or invalidation by deception by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/28 "2014-02-23T03:12:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The nation is indeed divisible if you want to nitpick. The flag no longer stands for a republic, but a mighty empire. Seeing people recite the pledge is one of the scariest recurring moments of my adult life. It’s the type of dystopian woo only a socialist minister could conjure up. If that’s the scariest thing you’ve ever seen, you’re damned lucky and should count your blessings. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/29 "2014-02-23T03:19:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > From how I read Wiki it was not taken as ceremonial nor meant as such… Really? Were there federal or state penalties for refusing to state the pledge? Or penalties for somehow violating the pledge once taken? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/30 "2014-02-23T04:13:01Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > . . . Were there federal or state penalties for refusing to state the pledge? . . . My old grade school teacher made me sit behind the piano when I refused to say it… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/31 "2014-02-23T04:36:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Does not ‘and’ require both to be valid? I know that is how it is in logic, but what about back then, does it mean and/or, or does it mean divisible in proportion? More to the point, “allegiance” requires that the pledger only be pledging to ONE thing/entity/symbol. There can be no _“I pledge allegiance to this – oh, and also to THIS.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/32 "2014-02-23T04:45:55Z")
There can if the relationship is metonymous. The flag is a metonym for the USA, so pledging to one and the other is really just for rhetorical emphasis. “The flag” is an abstraction, anyway; you’re not pledging allegiance to any particular piece of cloth, but to the conceptual national symbol. It would _also_ work to say “I pledge allegiance to the Eagle,” but it doesn’t flow quite so trippingly off the tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/33 "2014-02-23T04:51:32Z")
I’d rather pledge absolute allegiance to a person like the Germans did ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/34 "2014-02-23T04:54:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I’d rather pledge absolute allegiance to a person like the Germans did [Knock yourself out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Flagg). ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/35 "2014-02-23T05:32:40Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > As a Christian, my allegiance is to all humanity. > > The Christ doesn’t care what side of an arbitrary and morally-irrelevant line on a map you come from, and neither do I. Borders are a human rights violation, and patriotic loyalty is a morally-indefensible treason to humanity. Yes – this is why I stopped saying it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/36 "2014-02-23T12:29:59Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Really? > > Were there federal or state penalties for refusing to state the pledge? > > Or penalties for somehow violating the pledge once taken? Since you asked the question this way, I would answer was considered to be covered under the right to disciple children. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/37 "2014-02-23T13:27:58Z")
I believe that any government-sponsored, -created, -recommended, or -mandated oath of allegiance should be considered a violation of the First Amendment. Same with any guidelines, rules, laws, etcetera, that purport to require ceremonial reverence for symbols or representatives of the state, such as flag-handling rules or “Hail to the Chief,” etc. Symbols should be treated as nothing more than tools for identification. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/38 "2014-02-23T13:52:59Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > More to the point, “allegiance” requires that the pledger only be pledging to ONE thing/entity/symbol. > > There can be no _“I pledge allegiance to this – oh, and also to THIS.”_ Not necessarily - the various things can also be hierarchically ordered, in which case you’re pledging allegiance to them all with the caveat that you pledge to side with the higher thing in case it and the lower thing come into conflict. See: the feudal system. You, penniless knight, pledge allegiance to the local Count, the Baron above him, the King and god. But you’re also supposed to help the King kill the Count should the latter start anything funny for less-than-honourable reasons. Of course, all of knightly literature is basically about how fun and fertile tragedy grounds these sorts of webs of conflicting loyalties are :). ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/39 "2014-02-23T18:24:32Z")
Who says the Pledge anyway except schoolchildren? And how many of them are even paying attention while reciting the words their teacher told them to say? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902/40 "2014-02-23T18:32:09Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > Who says the Pledge anyway except schoolchildren? And how many of them are even paying attention while reciting the words their teacher told them to say? If that were truly the case, why would anyone even bother? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-allegiance-inherently-automatic-invalid/681902.md?page=3)