# Is the Pledge of Alliegance Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088 "2002-06-26T19:06:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/121 "2002-06-27T14:02:15Z")
The National Republican Campaign Committee sent a memo to every Republican member of Congress yesterday urging them to “blame liberal Tom Daschle for holding up judicial nominees.” > [@](#): > > House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Illinois, also said it underscores the need for the Senate to confirm “some common sense jurists.” > > In a statement, Haster said: > > "Obviously, the liberal court in San Francisco has gotten this one wrong. Of course, we are one nation, under God. The Pledge of Allegiance is a patriotic salute that brings people of all faiths together to share in the American spirit. That’s an interesting spin. 🙂 I’m interested in how exactly this brings people of _all faiths_ together. Does it bring Buddhists together, for example, who don’t believe in a god? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/122 "2002-06-27T14:12:32Z")
Of course, when Hastur says “all faiths”, he means “all faiths not too different from mine.” And he sure doesn’t want to “come together” with people of no faith. Those people are worse than terrorists! At least the terrorists have a faith… ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/123 "2002-06-27T14:19:49Z")
I’ve already heard the tired “Laws are based on religion and religious morality” arguement. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/124 "2002-06-27T14:25:53Z")
**musicguy** , as with all things, a quote from _The Simpsons_ should clear things up: > [@](#): > > _Lisa and Bart are watching ‘A Krusty Kinda Kristmas’._ > > Lisa: Hey, I thought Krusty was Jewish. > Bart: Christmas is a time when people of **all** religions come together to worship Jesus Christ. 😃 The dishonesty and stupidity continues, BTW. Missouri Senator Christopher Bond is quoted in a Yahoo news story today as saying: > [@](#): > > “Our Founding Fathers must be spinning in their graves. This is the worst kind of political correctness run amok,” Bond said. “What’s next? Will the courts now strip ‘so help me God’ from the pledge taken by new presidents?” Apparently, reading or knowing the Constitution is now considered optional for members of the Senate. The Presidential Oath of Office, as recorded in the U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section I, reads: > [@](#): > > Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:–“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” Whatta maroon. I think I’ll send his office an e-mail today. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/125 "2002-06-27T14:29:26Z")
Angel of the Lord wrote: > [@](#): > > I really don’t think that any omnipotent, benevolent, all-wise being would actually agree with everything that this country has been doing at any given moment. Nonsense! Everyone knows that of all the countries on Earth, God most loves the United States of America. This is evidenced by the existence of songs such as “God Bless America,” and by the fact that Pat Robertson, God’s chosen spokesman, lives in the USA. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/126 "2002-06-27T14:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > But, where is the evidence that pledges are ineffective? I haven’t seen any arguments for the opposing POV, even flawed ones. The belief that pledges are useless seems to be nothing but wishful thinking. \*\* Perhaps the burden of proof should be to prove that the pledge is effective, since it is difficult or impossible to prove a negative. Have you ever heard anyone say something like “I hated America until I recited that pledge!” or “Just land that plane, Muhommed! I hated the great Satan until those sweet words of liberty hit my ear!” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/127 "2002-06-27T14:59:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, when Hastur says “all faiths”, he means “all faiths not too different from mine.” Let’s be clear the quote comes from the Speaker of the House, Dennis **Hastert** , and not from our esteemed poster, **Hastur**. I am looking forward to the groundswell of Fundamentalist Christian venom against this decision; it just reaffirms my opinion of their intelligence and morality. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/128 "2002-06-27T15:04:09Z")
Oh crap! Yes, of course I meant “Hastert”. Sorry **Hastur** , if you’re reading this. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/129 "2002-06-27T15:16:03Z")
said **december:** “The belief that pledges are useless seems to be nothing but wishful thinking.” I think you have to look at the pledge that is being taken. If you are taking the oath of citizenship, or the oath of the office of the Presidency, or swearing to tell the truth in a court of law, then the contexts involved, and the very serious nature of these particular circumstances are much greater than a child reciting a pledge learned by rote. Maybe my circumstances were different from yours, but I never once gave thought to what the true meaning of the PoA was, never once after reciting it felt waves of patriotism flow over me, or felt overwhelmed to dedicate my life to the betterment of my country. I was a child, for heaven’s sake, and by the time I could truly understand the concepts put forth in the PoA, I was long past the age where I was required to recite it. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/130 "2002-06-27T16:57:54Z")
— There are no circumstances under which I would accept an attempt to remove the name of God from public discourse, either.— Do I have to point out this same exact dishonesty time and time again? The name of God is not being removed from public discourse. It is asked that it be removed from government action. That’s quite different. No member of the public has in any way been affected by this ruling in their ability to talk about, or pledge to, any god they please, whenever they please. —Suppose we remove the words “under God” from the Pledge. A class of students contains 29 Christians and one atheist. They all recite the Pledge. The 29 include the words, and drown out the atheist.— That’s their right, and this court decision affects it not one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/131 "2002-06-27T17:23:49Z")
Niiice, Gaudere ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/132 "2002-06-27T18:39:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Pride no longer has definition > everybody wears it, it always fits > state invoked for the lack of position ~Fugazi, _Facet Squared_ Just thought it fit the pledge so well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/133 "2002-06-27T21:00:58Z")
I’m at something of a loss for the correct phrasing. Something that will get my point across succinctly, while maintaining my reputation for probity and prudence. _The Pledge of Allegiance is a crock!_ Close, but not quite. _The Pledge of Allegiance is a crock of shit!_ Ahh, just so. Nuanced. I believe the term is “agency”. Which is to say, without choice, there is no voluntary commitment, hence any “pledge” is meaningless. And what decisions do we permit children to make? “Father, might I have some chocolate ice cream?” “Well, son, if you can bear the guilt of supporting the oppression of Swiss orphans in sweatshops…” “Yes, Father, I can, as I am rather fond of chocolate.” OR “Mother, I prefer the patent leather Mary Janes, if I might.” “Well, dear, they are rather shiny, you know, so boys will be using the reflection to peer up under your dress and see your thong.” “That’s quite all right, Mother, as I have resolved to become a lesbian, and to spend nine years in graduate school writing the definitive and exhaustive treatment of Virginia Wolff and Vita Sackeville-West.” “Oh, very well, child. Pass Mother her pills, won’t you, dear, I feel rather a headache coming on….” Equally absurd: “Thank you for your invitation to participate in your charming patriotic ritual, Ms. Crobopple, but after deliberation I have quite decided to be Canadian, as I am pale, excessively polite and cannot find Minnesota.” Ridiculous? Of course. Because children have no agency, we do not permit that they make such decisions until they are of appropriate age. Therefore, the POA isn’t a pledge at all, it is an act of submission, a gesture of obeisance to authority, and nothing more. To indoctrinate children with rituals of submission to Authority ought to be anathema for a nation born from rebellion. Educate our children, teach them to read and yes, argue. Show them our entire history, warts, Watergate and all. Then they can decide. All in all, its just another brick in the wall. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/134 "2002-06-27T21:38:56Z")
elucidator, this may be the only time I am in 100% agreement with you. A second-grader doesn’t even understand that she has such a choice, let alone what that choice entails, nor should she be put in that position. It’s indoctrination, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/135 "2002-06-27T21:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A day after he flabbergasted the nation by declaring the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, a federal appeals court judge put his ruling on hold indefinitely Thursday. > > Circuit Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, who wrote the 2-1 opinion that said the phrase “under God” violates the separation of church and state, stayed his ruling until fellow members of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decide whether to reconsider the case. He gave no reason. Un-fricken- believable ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/136 "2002-06-27T21:57:06Z")
Cowardice in the Judiciary. I’ll bet the phone lines between DC and San Francisco were red-hot the last 24 hours. So much for “separation of powers”. Whether the magic phrase was “judicial impeachment” or “never a Supreme Court nomination”, you can bet he was unofficially blackmailed… jayjay ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/137 "2002-06-27T22:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \*It’s indoctrination, pure and simple. Indeed it is. It’s indoctrination into supporting the country and for providing liberty and justice for all. So, what’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/138 "2002-06-27T22:32:34Z")
Next on FOX, december destroys the village in order to save it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/139 "2002-06-27T22:38:02Z")
The Taliban formed a nation under God. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Harvey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@Max\_Harvey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Harvey)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088/140 "2002-06-27T23:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **I see this whole affair as yet another petty attempt by a minority to dictate to the majority. What the hell is point of being a ‘democracy’ if the majority does not call the shots?** George Wallace, 1963. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-pledge-of-alliegance-unconstitutional/116088.md?page=8)