# Is the Pope's refusal to quit brave & selfless or simply egotistical at this point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225 "2004-10-26T13:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/1 "2004-10-26T13:38:38Z")
IANAC but it seems to me he’s in pretty bad shape, and has been for quite some time. Why does he cling to the office although clearly unable to vigorously execute his duties? Is power that difficult to relinquish? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/2 "2004-10-26T13:41:43Z")
It’s been hundreds of years since a Pope stepped down, so it might not be the simple choice for him to do so. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/3 "2004-10-26T13:48:31Z")
His body is frail but his mind is still sharp. There is no precedent in the modern papacy for resignation so he stays until death. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/4 "2004-10-26T13:49:08Z")
He’s exemplifying the frail and temporary body vers. strong and eternal soul/mind of Christian belief with his own person. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/5 "2004-10-26T13:51:03Z")
I watched one of my grandfathers die of Parkinsons. It’s not pretty. The body eventually stops working entirely and the person ends up totally bedridden, drawn up into the fetal position. We fed him through a syringe and changed him like a baby. If they wait for the Pope to die before replacing him, it will be a while…and there will be some sort of “shadow pope” (or popes) running the show. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/6 "2004-10-26T13:52:29Z")
Well as far as the church is concerned. God through others put him there. Why would they question God? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/7 "2004-10-26T13:56:31Z")
It’s happened in the past that a pope has been too sick to work - or too senile - or it has simply taken a long time to choose the new guy. The Roman Catholic Church has survived it, and will survive if John Paul II lives but is too sick to work for a time. The day-to-day running of the RCC can be accomplished without a pope. King Haakon VII of Norway was frequently ill in the last years of his life, and was asked if he had considered retiring. He answered “There are only two kinds of kings - current and dead.” In a way the Pope is a monarch, and I think the same thing applies. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/8 "2004-10-26T15:59:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > His body is frail but his mind is still sharp. There is no precedent in the modern papacy for resignation so he stays until death. If his mind is sharp, what are you comparing it to? A bent aluminum spoon? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/9 "2004-10-26T16:07:18Z")
As **Marley23** , **BobLibDem** and **flodnak** pointed out, the Pope, for all practical purposes, can’t resign his post. Egotism doesn’t really figure into it. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/10 "2004-10-26T16:12:39Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > If his mind is sharp, what are you comparing it to? A bent aluminum spoon? Obviously, you’ve never known anyone with Parkinson’s Disease. People with this disease deteriorate physically, but there’s nothing wrong with their mind. It’s sorta the opposite of Alzheimer’s. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/11 "2004-10-26T16:46:26Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Why does he cling to the office although clearly unable to vigorously execute his duties? Precisely which duties do you believe the Pope has which he is unable to perform? The Pope doesn’t have to perform public Masses and make speaches, you know. He does them because they uplift the faithful. In other words, **WHY** , other than “he’s just too old dammit!” or “I don’t happen to agree with his decisions,” **should** he step down? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/12 "2004-10-26T16:51:21Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > People with this disease deteriorate physically, but there’s nothing wrong with their mind. At what point does his increasing inability to communicate his wishes become a detriment to the carrying out of his duties? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/13 "2004-10-26T16:56:29Z")
[Handy-dandy FAQ](http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu17.htm) > [@](#): > > Q. Can the Pope abdicate? > A. In the 1980’s, concerned by the fact that medical advances can maintain a person’s life much longer, that there could exist the possibility of a Pope having to rule from a hospital bed, and in consideration of the arduous task of leading the Church, the Holy Father approved a revision to the Church’s Canon Law that now provides for the retirement of a Pope. > > Should a Pope decide to abdicate, it must be voluntary. Since the College of Cardinals is responsible for the election of a successor, the Pope who abdicates must do so in the hands of the College of Cardinals. More info on historical abdications of Popes, though none since the 1400’s. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/14 "2004-10-26T17:07:07Z")
> [@astro](#): > > IANAC but it seems to me he’s in pretty bad shape, and has been for quite some time. Why does he cling to the office although clearly unable to vigorously execute his duties? Is power that difficult to relinquish? It’s not that it’s “difficult” per se, but rather that it would be a considerable break from Church tradition (and John Paul II clearly holds Church tradition in high regard). As far as his duties are concerned, he can execute them so long as he can stay concious and communicative – it’s not as if the Pope has to dig ditches, after all. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/15 "2004-10-26T17:41:28Z")
Any time I hear about him traveling, I wonder if he is not hoping it will be too much for his body, maybe speeding up his meeting his maker. What does he gain by retiring? It would likely speed any mental decline. Who would want to quicken their own senility? Would resting in bed until dead really be a better life? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/16 "2004-10-27T04:05:43Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > At what point does his increasing inability to communicate his wishes become a detriment to the carrying out of his duties? IINAC, but as far as I can tell, **never**! I don’t think the Pope has “duties” in the sense of a “job description” that he is required to fulfill. What he has is an enormous emount of power, priviledge, respect, and authority. His only “duty” is to wield those for the sake of Christ and His Church. Every practical aspect of running the Church can be done on his behalf without his direct involvement. Think of it like a very close-knit, traditional family, in which everyone relies on the patriarch to make decisions and offer advice–where to go to grad school, whom to marry, how to raise the kids–all are decided in accordance with Papa’s wishes. At some point, Papa may take a less active interest in his children’s lives. Other family members may be turned to more often for advice. Michael may take over the family bussiness. But Papa is always Papa! (And Vito is always the Godfather!) As long as he lives, any wishes he chooses and is able to make known are heeded. Only once the person dies, it is a different story. At that point, the **position** of authority, as well as the authority itself, may be transfered to someone else. Untill that time, however, the same person retains the position and it is his to use, however frequently or infrequently. (Note: the word Pope _means_ papa!) No one steps down as a father or as the head of a family. Theologically, this would all be put very differently, but I think it works as a rough analogy for the secularly minded. Knowledgeable Catholics will undoubtedly correct me if I’m wrong. (And of course the Godfather references were in no way inteded disrespectfully.) If no one **ever** became Pope who was able to take an active role in leading the Church and in appointing Bishops and Cardinals, the result would be a significant change in the way the church works. But the Cardinals and the Curia were appointed by the current Pope and they could run the Church on his behalf for many decades, if necessary. It’s what he appointed them to do. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/17 "2004-10-27T15:40:37Z")
Also, you get a bit of a Catch-22 for papal abdication – if he abdicates while he is still in use of his mental faculties, even if he decides to go into cloistered contemplation there will always be factions in the hierarchy who will claim or pretend to have a line to JP in order to second-guess his successor. If he waits until he’s just about to become fully incapacitated, then the successor would live under the cloud that it may not have been a valid abdication but one weaseled out of a weakened JP by the Curia. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/18 "2004-10-27T16:04:05Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Any time I hear about him traveling, I wonder if he is not hoping it will be too much for his body, maybe speeding up his meeting his maker. catholics generally believe suicide is one of a very few unforgiveable sins. Question : is the Pope Catholic? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/19 "2004-10-28T01:23:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > catholics generally believe suicide is one of a very few unforgiveable sins. And they’re generally wrong about that bit. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225/20 "2004-10-28T16:17:53Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > In a way the Pope is a monarch, and I think the same thing applies. It is not “in a way” - the Pope is indeed a monarch, full stop. Otherwise, I agree completely with your post. Sua [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-popes-refusal-to-quit-brave-selfless-or-simply-egotistical-at-this-point/271225.md?page=2)