# Is the practice of Islam declining in the face of modernity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333 "2014-10-14T20:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/1 "2014-10-14T20:08:45Z")
I want to get a debate going here, I’ve come to a conclusion that the practice of the Islamic faith is going to face a similar situation that Christianity has faced, that it will be given token respect, but by and large will be seen as an institution of less and less relevance over time. Here are some examples, [ul] [li]People are now usually just doing the symbolic rituals to show they’re real ‘Muslims’ rather than believing in them (Great example being Egypt, very religious however very corrupt) For example wearing a Hijab, but wearing western clothes, which completely contradicts the rule of ‘Modesty’ for some.[/li][/ul] [ul] [li]More access to the outside world, which usually dilutes any dogmatism for a wide majority[/li][/ul] [ul]Like most religions to most people, it’s inherently **boring**. [/ul] I think what we’re witnessing now is a high noon of Islamic conservatism/revivalism, although I don’t know how long it will last, my opinion is that usually having religion as part of the establishment will ultimately hollow out the religion and make it more irrelevant over time, this will become more apparent if and when more unstable parts of the Islamic world have better economies and stable political structures. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/2 "2014-10-14T22:08:24Z")
Monotheisms like Christianity and Islam don’t really mesh well with a modern world where it’s easy to learn that most people are of different religions that have just as much evidence for them, are believed in just as fervently, aren’t practically worse or better, and where destroying the competition isn’t practical. They don’t handle beliefs from outside their worldview well at all. I expect both of them to continue to weaken and be replaced by either European style apatheism or by other religions better adapted to the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/3 "2014-10-14T22:09:12Z")
Christianity in the US only has token support and no real influence? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/4 "2014-10-14T22:32:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Christianity in the US only has token support and no real influence? :dubious: America’s an aberration among industrialized countries when it comes to religion. And even in America Christianity is much weaker than it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/5 "2014-10-14T22:39:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Christianity in the US only has token support and no real influence? :dubious: I was going to ask the same question. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > America’s an aberration among industrialized countries when it comes to religion. And even in America Christianity is much weaker than it used to be. I don’t know about that. Maybe the number of Christians in the US is lower than it used to be, but I think the vociferous strain of Christianity in the US has more power and certainly more influence than ever. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/6 "2014-10-14T22:50:13Z")
I don’t know if the insincere performance of rituals is easily determined. Just because a girl wears jeans with her hijab doesn’t mean that she is not really practicing. Obviously it doesn’t contradict the rule of modesty for them. On the other hand there are lots of people who fake being religious out of fear of social or legal repercussions that could even include disownment or violence. How many, and whether they are apostates or some kind of heterodox, is really, really hard to know. There are also people who act more religious for the social benefit, but again, how to count these people? On the other other hand, there are lots of people for whom Islam has become a strong community marker, asking them to observe some rituals but otherwise not encouraging a lot of devotion. The amount of Muslims who try to fast for Ramadan in France is much higher than the amount who go to Mosque or who pray regularly. In Europe, lots of young Muslims assimilate very well, but others react conservatively. The internet and globalization does promote questioning for lots of people, but others settle into niches that aren’t available to them in their towns and can actually get more extreme. Certainly, the religiosities of Islamic communities have not followed single trends in the last 150 years. In Egypt, to take your example, you would not have seen many hijabs on the street in 1950. Huda Shaarawi unveiling herself a few decades before was a huge deal. Things change. If this were an academic setting I would challenge the idea that religion is boring by noting that religion as meaning making is something that everyone does all the time. In fact, because it is about assigning value and meaning, it is the only thing that we can legitimately say is inherently _not_ boring. But I know that here and in most places, religion’s definition is limited to particular institutionalized forms, and people will (with good reason) bristle to be told they are always doing “religion” when a big part of their identity is based on the idea that they are not. So I will just say, yeah, practicing Islam traditionally is burdensome for lots of people. But my experience with ex-Muslims is that people don’t usually leave for that reason. And this is counterbalanced by the people for whom praying 5 times a day, fasting for Ramadan, and dressing in a certain way is something they derive real value from, even if they sometimes don’t want to wake up early. The problem is that the way Islam is part of the establishment in many Muslim countries is not the way Christian churches were a part of European countries, and the close association of ‘secular’ states and religion in Muslim countries has actually seen growing religiosity. Things could play out similar to what the OP is predicting, and there are signs that anti-religious movements are burgeoning in surprising places. But if it happens it probably won’t follow the Christian example. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/7 "2014-10-14T23:20:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect both of them to continue to weaken and be replaced by either European style apatheism or by other religions better adapted to the modern world. What religions are those (better adapted to the modern world)? Japanese animism (Shinto) seems as good a candidate as any, it permeates the culture but is easy to ignore. What are your candidates? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/8 "2014-10-15T01:28:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And even in America Christianity is much weaker than it used to be. Really. When in the 20th Century prior to the coming of the Moral Majority was Christianity stronger than it is now? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/9 "2014-10-15T01:46:20Z")
Far from declining, it’s the fastest growing religion in the world. Religions last an awfully long time, longer than other human institutions, like countries. I’d be very hesitant to predict the death of any of them. (I’m also reminded of an old _Reader’s Digest_ article, ca. 1970, that confidently asserted “women’s lib” was a dying fad.) ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/10 "2014-10-15T02:03:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really. When in the 20th Century prior to the coming of the Moral Majority was Christianity stronger than it is now? I’d go back even more. There was a wave of anti-religious popular speakers in the 19th century. Alternative religious movements were commonly seen. Franklin Pierce affirmed his oath of office on the constitution instead of the Bible without anybody raising a fuss AFAIK. Jefferson was accused of being an atheist but still got elected twice. Of course, it’s hard to talk about what is strong and weak when the character of the debate changes so much. The US has always varied so much region to region, and over time. Evangelicals (especially Baptists) were once among the strongest supporters of separation between Church and State. You have Judeo-Christian imagery inserted into American civil religion during the Cold War, while the Supreme Court was banning prayer in public schools and the Jehovah’s Witnesses were leading a bunch of lawsuits on religious freedom. It’s interesting to compare the JFK speech about his Catholicism and Romney’s speeches about his LDS faith. And JFK was talking to a group of ministers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/11 "2014-10-15T09:28:51Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I don’t know about that. Maybe the number of Christians in the US is lower than it used to be, but I think the vociferous strain of Christianity in the US has more power and certainly more influence than ever. True, but I’m pretty sure it has peaked, for all time. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/12 "2014-10-15T09:52:21Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What religions are those (better adapted to the modern world)? Japanese animism (Shinto) seems as good a candidate as any, it permeates the culture but is easy to ignore. What are your candidates? Most anything that’s not monotheistic, and doesn’t make too many claims about objective facts that can be easily disproven. Buddhism comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/13 "2014-10-16T01:40:59Z")
Like others, I question the OP’s assumptions. Neither the practice of Christianity nor the practice of Islam is in decline worldwide, though that might be the case within certain countries. I am also doubtful about the “inherently boring” claim. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/15 "2014-10-16T06:11:10Z")
Reported. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/16 "2014-10-16T06:11:33Z")
Reported ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/17 "2014-10-16T14:13:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > People are now usually just doing the symbolic rituals to show they’re real ‘Muslims’ rather than believing in them (Great example being Egypt, very religious however very corrupt) For example wearing a Hijab, but wearing western clothes, which completely contradicts the rule of ‘Modesty’ for some. Let’s start with this first item. What is your proof that this is so? 1. Since when does “being corrupt” and “being religious” contradict each other? 2. You need to demonstrate that these women wearing “western clothes” would have been wearing hijab 25 years ago, for example. You also have to demonstrate that wearing hijab is essential to Islam. (For example, are Catholic nuns who no longer wear habits any less religious than those of 50 years ago, when all of them did?) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/18 "2014-10-16T19:16:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s start with this first item. What is your proof that this is so? > > 1. Since when does “being corrupt” and “being religious” contradict each other? > > 2. You need to demonstrate that these women wearing “western clothes” would have been wearing hijab 25 years ago, for example. You also have to demonstrate that wearing hijab is essential to Islam. (For example, are Catholic nuns who no longer wear habits any less religious than those of 50 years ago, when all of them did?) There is good evidence for the first example. I’ve used an excerpt from a book I’ve read about the situation of piety and corruption. > **[Amazon.com: On the State of Egypt: What Made the Revolution Inevitable:...](https://www.amazon.com/State-Egypt-What-Revolution-Inevitable/dp/0307946983)** > > Amazon.com: On the State of Egypt: What Made the Revolution Inevitable: 9780307946980: Aswany, Alaa Al, Wright, Jonathan: Books > [@](#): > > **Are Egyptians Really Religious?** > > For years I worked as a dentist in a large government establishment with thousands of workers. On the first day, while I was treating a patient, the clinic door opened and someone appeared. He introduced himself as Dr. Mahmoud, the pharmacist, and invited me to come and perform the noon prayer as part > of a group. I declined, saying I would finish my work and then pray. We got into a discussion that almost became an argument because he insisted I abandon the patient and join the prayers, while I insisted on continuing to work. After that I discovered that Dr. Mahmoud’s ideas were widespread among the people > working in the establishment. > They were as devout as can be. The women all covered their hair, and at least half an hour before the noon prayer everyone stopped work completely and set about performing ablutions and spreading mats in the corridors in preparation for communal prayers. > Of course they would also take part in the hajj and umra trips the establishment organized every year. I had no objection to all that because it’s a wonderful thing to be devout, but I quickly discovered that many of the people working there, although rigorous about performing their ritual obligations, were committing many serious offenses, ranging from mistreating people, lying, and hypocrisy to abusing subordinates and even taking bribes and embezzling public funds. In fact the Dr. Mahmoud who insisted on inviting me to prayers turned out later to have been tweaking the accounts and selling medicine on the side. As for the second, my point was that in the limits of the religiously conservative society, women have adapted freedoms such as wearing western style clothing, and also combining it with a hijab, which still demonstrates piety, but doesn’t necessarily means they believe sincerely in the restrictions placed upon them. > [@](#): > > **ITR Champion** > Like others, I question the OP’s assumptions. Neither the practice of Christianity nor the practice of Islam is in decline worldwide, though that might be the case within certain countries. I am also doubtful about the “inherently boring” claim. If you’re doubtful about the inheirently boring claim, then explain why such a low number of Iranians go to do daily prayers at the Mosque; > **[History of the Islamic Republic of Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#Religion)** > > One of the most dramatic changes in government in Iran's history was seen with the 1979 Iranian Revolution where Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was overthrown and replaced by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. The authoritarian monarchy was replaced by a long-lasting Shiite Islamic republic based on the principle of guardianship of Islamic jurists, (or Velayat-e faqih), where Shiite jurists serve as head of state and in many powerful governmental roles. A pro-Western, pro-American foreign policy was exchan... > [@](#): > > Iran is governed by Sharia law. It is one of the few Muslim countries where hijab for women is required by law. At the same time, it has “the lowest mosque attendance of any Islamic country,” according to Zohreh Soleimani of the BBC.[62] **Iranian clergy have complained that more than 70% of the population do not perform their daily prayers and that less than 2% attend Friday mosques.** [63] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/19 "2014-10-16T19:40:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > If you’re doubtful about the inheirently boring claim, then explain why such a low number of Iranians go to do daily prayers at the Mosque; > > [History of the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#Religion) A psychological effect of Islam being the state religion. People tend to become more fervent, more determined to “uphold the faith” when they feel it is persecuted and threatened. When it’s written into the law on the other hand, well it’s hard to convince people a religion is threatened when it’s the law of the land. Just look at all the European counties when Christianity is officially the state religion but where most people are indifferent to it. Whereas in for example _America_ Christianity is explicitly not the law of the land, preachers go on and on constantly about how under siege Christianity is and their followers _believe_ it. Plus of course religion in power tends to make itself highly unpleasant, a lot worse than just “boring”. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/20 "2014-10-16T20:08:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A psychological effect of Islam being the state religion. People tend to become more fervent, more determined to “uphold the faith” when they feel it is persecuted and threatened. When it’s written into the law on the other hand, well it’s hard to convince people a religion is threatened when it’s the law of the land. Just look at all the European counties when Christianity is officially the state religion but where most people are indifferent to it. > > Whereas in for example _America_ Christianity is explicitly not the law of the land, preachers go on and on constantly about how under siege Christianity is and their followers _believe_ it. > > Plus of course religion in power tends to make itself highly unpleasant, a lot worse than just “boring”. But then Islam is the law of the land in Saudi Arabia. Why don’t we see the same effect in that country? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333/21 "2014-10-16T20:29:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But then Islam is the law of the land in Saudi Arabia. Why don’t we see the same effect in that country? What makes you so certain that there’s not? I’d add that in my own rather limited experience, Saudis who are well-educated are vastly more likely to be amongst what someone once charmingly described as “the hardcore religious types”. Similarly, in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood has always gotten it’s most fervent supporters from the educated, and usually frustrated middle class, not amongst the uneducated peasants. People will notice most of the 911 hijackers weren’t the children of peasants and most had multiple degrees and spoke multiple languages. The idea that people who are strongly religious are less likely to be so if they are educated is arrogant, stupid, and demonstrably false. I’d certainly love to see anyone who insists that head over to BYU and start talking to the students there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-practice-of-islam-declining-in-the-face-of-modernity/701333.md?page=2)