# Is The Reputed Hifg Quality of Stradivari Viulins a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455 "2004-12-12T15:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/81 "2004-12-16T16:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Explanation of the music is crucial to answering the OP. And I agreed that playability and tone were two different but related issues. They are _both_ still determined by **structural** properties. “Music” includes what the _sequence_ of notes is rather than just the frequency amplitudes comprising the individual tones, and I would not seek to address whether one _sequence_ of notes was ‘better’ than another. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/82 "2004-12-16T16:28:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And I agreed that playability and tone were two different but related issues. They are _both_ still determined by **structural** properties. “Music” includes what the _sequence_ of notes is rather than just the frequency amplitudes comprising the individual tones, and I would not seek to address whether one _sequence_ of notes was ‘better’ than another. To examine individual tones and to refuse to examine musical sequences is to ignore the very thing that makes it a musical instrument. And the context of the OP is with the Strad as a musical instrument, not as an object which emits individual tones. Granted, understanding the behaviour of individual tones is an important step. But it _proves_ nothing about the quality of the musical instrument as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/83 "2004-12-16T16:32:48Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I’m not talking about superficial evidence like fingerprints and stool positions, but a careful test of whether normal playing of it _affected_ it noticeably. The test would be that the _only_ variable you are testing is “whether it has been played today”, with no other clues than those which your fingers tell you. Did I say something about fingerprints or “stool positions” when I explained what happens when I detect someone else has played on my instrument? My children are careful enough to avoid leaving any such “proof” you describe and do whatever it takes to have their intrusion in my Holy Places conceiled. > [@](#): > > My bet is that it doesn’t - if you could pass such a careful test, that yould be a very interesting datum. I explained why I detect it and what - in my view - the cause of that is. And no, it is not of any noteworthy interest because if you ask at random experienced pianists who play their instruments for years, they can tell you the same story. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/84 "2004-12-16T16:48:38Z")
> [@](#): > > **GM** : And the context of the OP is with the Strad as a musical instrument, not as an object which emits individual tones. A musical instrument is a device which emits tones, individually or in plurality. Sound is compression or rarefaction of the air at superimposed frequencies and amplitudes. > [@](#): > > Granted, understanding the behaviour of individual tones is an important step. But it proves nothing about the quality of the musical instrument as a whole. The quality of a musical instrument is determined solely by its structural properties. > [@](#): > > **Alde** : I explained why I detect it and what - in my view - the cause of that is. I merely asked for careful demonstration _that_ you detect it. Many people, from dowsers to psychics, have been as confident in their demonstrative ability as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/85 "2004-12-16T16:53:57Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > A musical instrument is a device which emits tones, individually or in plurality. Sound is compression or rarefaction of the air at superimposed frequencies and amplitudes. > The quality of a musical instrument is determined solely by its structural properties. Unless you want to go down the John Cage route, can we agree that not all sounds are music or musical? A good violin is one that enables the player to make good music - of which the aesthetic aspects of tone quality are only one part. To show that there is no difference between Strads and good modern violins requires much more than showing there is no difference in their tone. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/86 "2004-12-16T17:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > can we agree that not all sounds are music or musical? Well, no we can’t, but that is another debate entirely. > [@](#): > > A good violin is one that enables the player to make good music - of which the aesthetic aspects of tone quality are only one part. Quality is an aethetic by definition. As for “good music”, let us drop what is _written on the stave_ as a variable. Tone quality _and playability_ are judged aesthetically, admittedly (again). > [@](#): > > To show that there is no difference between Strads and good modern violins requires much more than showing there is no difference in their tone. _And playability_. Any more criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/87 "2004-12-16T17:13:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I merely asked for careful demonstration that you detect it. My children could tell you instantly about that “careful demonstration”. Children don’t say “yes” to an accusation when they haven’t done anything wrong. They also don’t risk to say “no” when the answer should be “yes” when they know their father has every possibility to question others about the matter. They are little, but smart 🙂 Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/88 "2004-12-16T17:39:23Z")
Sentient, you still are no further then your assertion that a violin is just some pieces of wood put together and emitting sounds when brought into action. For you these sounds are by definition unchangeable preconditioned and limited and blocked into this condition excluding influencing factors of any kind, because these pieces of wood are brought together in a certain way to form a violin. If we exclude quality, tone, colour etc… to make you feel more comfortable about this theory: Explain with this theory to me why my relative can alter the soundvolume of my violin. She uses the same strings, the same bow, the same pieces of wood brought together to form a violin. Even plays the same pieces as I do. Nevertheless the violin, a 3/4 = in your theory by its size limited to the according preconditioned volume of any sound, emits sounds you expect to be emitted by a 4/4 sized instrument. Is that the violin magically and invisible growing or is that the player influencing its ability to produce sounds? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/89 "2004-12-16T19:18:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **Alde** : Children don’t say “yes” to an accusation when they haven’t done anything wrong. I was just attempting to bring some formalism to your claims, since to me they sound a little like those of a dowser. > [@](#): > > Sentient, you still are no further then your assertion that a violin is just some pieces of wood put together and emitting sounds when brought into action. I am arguing that it _need_ be no more, following the principle of Ockham’s Razor, and that musicians often fall for myths and pseudoscience since they make superficial ‘sense’. > [@](#): > > For you these sounds are by definition unchangeable preconditioned and limited and blocked into this condition excluding influencing factors of any kind, because these pieces of wood are brought together in a certain way to form a violin. I am saying that the musician can only affect the _string_, not the _plates_ which amplify the string and determine the violin’s tone and playability. > [@](#): > > Explain with this theory to me why my relative can alter the soundvolume of my violin. She uses the same strings, the same bow, the same pieces of wood brought together to form a violin. Even plays the same pieces as I do. > Nevertheless the violin, a 3/4 = in your theory by its size limited to the according preconditioned volume of any sound, emits sounds you expect to be emitted by a 4/4 sized instrument. > Is that the violin magically and invisible growing or is that the player influencing its ability to produce sounds? Maximum volume is nonlinearly related to plate area. One _would_ expect the maximum volume of a 3/4 violin to be similar to that of a 4/4 (after all, one wouldn’t expect a cello to be 15 times as loud!) The perceived [sound pressure level](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure) is based on the monopole source strength of the modes (structural, not pentatonic _etc_!) of the top plate as perturbed by coupling with the cavity and back plate, which is not a simple function of _size_. (A whistle is very loud but very small.) ---
**Author:** ![Alvis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alvis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alvis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/90 "2004-12-16T19:20:55Z")
I have a feeling this thread will be moving to Great Debates soon. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/91 "2004-12-16T19:41:09Z")
Heh heh, so be it - but I’m trying to be as factual as I can, honest! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/92 "2004-12-16T21:02:41Z")
One other point: violin strings in 1700 were made of gut, while today we use steel. I would imagine that the sounds made by these strings would be differnet…and also, steel strings impose much hgher mechnical loads upon the body of the violin. Are these violins played with gut or steel strings today? Also, Stradivari made cellos and bass instruments-how are those compared to modern ones? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/93 "2004-12-16T22:35:18Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, and I’m saying it _is_ audible - but it cannot be reduced to quantifiable properties of the individual sounds. Fine. So why would this not be provable in single blind testing? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/94 "2004-12-17T00:30:31Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Fine. So why would this not be provable in single blind testing? You say ‘blind testing’ as if it’s some panacea, despite the thread explaining many times over why it’s not possible to blind test instruments. Explain to us how you would truly ‘blind test’ our instruments, and I’ll listen. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/95 "2004-12-17T01:58:56Z")
I think Princhester meant by a single blind test that the listeners would be blindfolded while the violin player was allowed to know which instrument they were playing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/96 "2004-12-17T02:11:01Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You say ‘blind testing’ as if it’s some panacea, despite the thread explaining many times over why it’s not possible to blind test instruments. The thread has not done any such thing. But quite simply, have a panel of blinded listeners hear various instruments playing a selection of pieces. Do this a number of times with various players and so as to average out good/bad specific performances, instruments that sound better on specific pieces and so on. Do as wide a variety of combinations and permutations and repitition as will make you happy. Ask the panel to score the various performances on whether they like what they hear or not. See whether celebrated antiques do better than comparable modern instruments. How hard is that? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/97 "2004-12-17T10:10:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **GM** : You say ‘blind testing’ as if it’s some panacea, despite the thread explaining many times over why it’s not possible to blind test instruments. How, then, can some listeners tell which sound came from which instrument so accurately? If the pieces, player, strings and bow are (largely) the same, the only variable is the assembly of wood itself, which thus determines playability (for the player’s judgement) and the tone (for the player _and_ listener’s judgement). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/98 "2004-12-17T12:10:06Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > But quite simply, have a panel of blinded listeners hear various instruments playing a selection of pieces. Do this a number of times with various players and so as to average out good/bad specific performances, instruments that sound better on specific pieces and so on. Do as wide a variety of combinations and permutations and repitition as will make you happy. > > Ask the panel to score the various performances on whether they like what they hear or not. See whether celebrated antiques do better than comparable modern instruments. > > How hard is that? The problem is that it removes much of what is prized about Strads. Anyone who plays on one will tell you they’re _harder_ to play at first. They take months, even years, to get comfortable with. Only then do the perceived benefits emerge. And a sub-standard player will be better of sticking to another fiddle. And in any case, we’re talking about instruments used by the very best players to produce the very best music - ‘averaging out’ performances is incompatible with this. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/99 "2004-12-17T12:17:15Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > One other point: violin strings in 1700 were made of gut, while today we use steel. I would imagine that the sounds made by these strings would be differnet…and also, steel strings impose much hgher mechnical loads upon the body of the violin. > Are these violins played with gut or steel strings today? > Also, Stradivari made cellos and bass instruments-how are those compared to modern ones? It depends on your personal preference and your experience with the instrument itself. You can also use a mix of gut strings and other ones. I would see the use of gut strings as preferable for baroque music, nevertheless many players use other ones or a mix. I always use gut strings on every violin. To me it doesn’t matter much that they are less stable while you play and more difficult to fine tune (putting fine-tuners on them is - in my view - useless.) I didn’t put gut strings on the Guarnerius to play Jazz. Not because they are more fragile (break more easily when you go wild) but because I wanted to have a “modern” and “sharper” sound effect with a 3/4 violin that was not build for such music. I take also an other type of bow for this type of music. The perceived higher quality of other instruments made by the old masters is the same as with the violin. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/100 "2004-12-17T12:53:57Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The problem is that it removes much of what is prized about Strads. Anyone who plays on one will tell you they’re _harder_ to play at first. They take months, even years, to get comfortable with. Only then do the perceived benefits emerge. And a sub-standard player will be better of sticking to another fiddle. > > And in any case, we’re talking about instruments used by the very best players to produce the very best music - ‘averaging out’ performances is incompatible with this. Sorry G’Man but from where I’m sitting you’re just trying to duck and weave. 1/ If it takes years or months to get comfortable with the instruments, then part of the experiment will have to include years or months of practice on them. 2/ Nobody but you mentioned anything about musicians who are sub-standard. 3/ If it takes the very best players playing the very best music then that is who and what should play and be played in the experiment. My reference to “averaging out” is just meaning that each piece should be played several times on each instrument perhaps on a number of separate occasions so that if (for example) one particular musician has an off day or something that doesn’t skew the results. You have accepted that in your opinion celebrated antique instruments are audibly better in a way that is detectable to a listener. Sooner or later you are going to have to accept that if that is true in any meaningful sense, then those instruments must necessarily be audibly better to listeners who don’t know what they are listening to. As yet you have not come up with any evidence fit for GQ better than the subjective and anecdotal that that is so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455.md?page=6)