# Is The Reputed Hifg Quality of Stradivari Viulins a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455 "2004-12-12T15:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/161 "2004-12-20T14:50:13Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Of course, but that million quid price tag is absed partly on the reputation of that instrument as being musically and acoustically _superior_ to the five grand one in the music shop next door Multiply that figure by ten to get somewhere close - five grand will only get you a run-of-the-mill student fiddle! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/162 "2004-12-20T15:05:58Z")
> [@](#): > > five grand will only get you a run-of-the-mill student fiddle! That may be so, but one might well also find a £5k instrument which you actually _prefer_ to a £50k one if you’re not told the prices beforehand - I’ve certainly found that to be the case with guitars. Again, we should not jump to conclusions in the absence of the necessary careful research, and unfortunately musical acoustics is not really high enough profile to acheive much funding, as I found out! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/163 "2004-12-20T15:15:32Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > That may be so, but one might well also find a £5k instrument which you actually _prefer_ to a £50k one if you’re not told the prices beforehand Yes, it’s possible to find them. But you have to go searching for a very long time indeed. The vast majority of £50k fiddles are quickly chosen over the £5k ones by the vast majority of violinists in that situation. This isn’t me jumping to conclusions, this is from seeing exactly this situation many times. (When you’re down to the £1-£5k range, the correlation between price and preference markedly lessens.) ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/164 "2004-12-20T15:45:43Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I suppose, but I still think that furniture is a better comparison than paintings, and genuine high quality 1700’s furniture simply does not command such vast prices even though it is rare, old and beautiful. I can give you a lot of examples of how crazy collectioners and museums can be. A few examples: A silver coffeepot, 18the century: auctioned for the equivalent of 1, 250,000 (now in a museum). A porcelain coffeecup and its dish (Dutch Eastern-Indian Company): 650,000. A little plump pharmacist’s vessel (15the century): 1/2 million. A piece of furniture like you think is not going much: Flemish cabinet, 17the century: close to 4 million (also bought by a museum). This are only a few examples of what goes on in circles of private collectioners, antique merchants and sometimes - luckely- also museums. Where there is a public for a merchandise, you can make money of it. If you don’t get the price you have in mind, you withdraw it and wait for an other public. It is as simple as that. I’m not convinced that prices of instruments will go down suddenly and in a dramatic way when there are good modern copies made available. They shall at least always keep their value as antiquities. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty convinced that Joseph Nagyvary’s research into ‘secret’ varnish is a red herring. I don’t know about that research, but I am inclined to think that varnish is varnish. But maybe when made the “old” way it is in some subtle way more “flexible” then when you put a very strong/resistent modern varnish on a violin. (Lucky for me I escaped medical study after one semester. Doubtful I would have have survived chemistry and other such difficult exams.) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/165 "2004-12-20T15:57:52Z")
MMM… Oh well… Now that I re-read my post I must confess: That coffeepot was 2 centuries older. (Who cares about 200 years more or less at that age.) I’m still recovering from that cup and dish though… This was genuily crazy and funny to follow. In the end the lady bidding on it was close to tears because the other guy had it. Like I say: where there is a public, you get quite a few crazy people gathering too. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/166 "2004-12-20T16:31:54Z")
Yes, **GM** and **Alde** , I certainly bow to your first-hand experience with real-life violin valuations, and clearly one would _need_ a good reason to part with £50k instead of £5k! I think we’re getting onto minutiae here so I’ll politley take my leave unless there’s any more specific questions of a more technical or ‘scientific’ nature, but I think this has been an extremely useful thread altogether, so kudos to everyone involved. (Luckily none of your Googling uncovered any of _my_ research, although the Catgut Acoustical Journal came close - that would’ve been a little embarassing!) ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/167 "2004-12-20T17:08:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Yes, **GM** and **Alde** , I certainly bow to your first-hand experience with real-life violin valuations, and clearly one would _need_ a good reason to part with £50k instead of £5k! Who says such a thing? Not me. I only give a few examples of how things go crazy once you enter the circles of the Crazy Collectors and mention that I don’t see sudden extinction of the species. So what is all your sudden complaining about? We are restrainment inpersonate here 🙂 > [@](#): > > I think we’re getting onto minutiae here so I’ll politley take my leave unless there’s any more specific questions of a more technical or ‘scientific’ nature, I have a lot of questions about that, actually. But since no sientist I have no clue how to describe them first of all, and secondly no idea how to write that down. (It would therefore have been intersting when the mod declared this thread leaning towards GD and got rid of it out of his domain. Others-with-questions could have done all that difficult writing for me). > [@](#): > > but I think this has been an extremely useful thread altogether, so kudos to everyone involved. Same here. I found your contributions especifially very interesting. Though a bit difficult to comprehend/follow for me, being not any sort of scientist in scientific matters involving wood behaviour and acoustics or anything “physics”. Especially when written in this language and involving things like figures and other complicates calculations. But handicaps are things of life. > [@](#): > > (Luckily none of your Googling uncovered any of _my_ research, although the Catgut Acoustical Journal came close - that would’ve been a little embarassing!) Did you gave a link to an article of yours? I only saw a link to an article from which you said it was written by someone you worked with on our reasearch. (Seems to me I can not google your membername and end up with a publication like you came to mention here.) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![EternalSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f9ae1b/32.png) [@EternalSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EternalSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/168 "2007-02-02T04:58:32Z")
[…] I think, there is more to it, but _nothing mythical_. …at blind tests… 1. A violin is a “machine” which converts muscle tensions and movements into sounds, hence the player and his/her specific motoric “abilities” and “preferences” have considerable influence on the sound of the instrument. 2. Every good instrument provides the player vith a very wide spectrum of possible nuances of tone. (Just listen to Gidon Kremer playing Isayes’ solo sonatas as an example of extreme wide Variety) 3. Every top rank player has his/her personal opinion and desire how he/she wants to sound and the ability to produce exactly that sound. If the instrument is good enough the player will produce a sound which comes as close as possible to the sound he/she wants (by choosing contact point, bow speed, very subtle differences in intonation, the dynamic during single notes and complete phrases etc.) 4. Given the points above the influence of the player on the sound in a blind test will be much higher than the properties of the instrument itself. Hence IMO these blind tests don’t tell us very much about the sound quality of good instruments. I daresay I’d be able to distinguish Perlman and Kremer in a blind test, but hardly Kremer playing a Strad or a Del Gesu or a top rank modern instrument. …at “break in” of instruments… Here I suppose you were looking at the wrong place. A violin is a very complex device (acoustcally). It’s sound and response depends on a quite big number of physical values: 1. The quality of the wood of the plates, ribs, neck and scroll as well as the inner blocks and linings. 2. Thickness and arching of the plates 3. weight and volume of neck and scroll 4. Tension in all parts introduced by the tension of the strings and the position and length of the soundpost (the force with which the soundpost is inserted before the strings are mounted is not a constant, every violinmaker does it slightly different), as well as tension introduced by glueing the parts together. 5. Now take into consideration, that , for example, moving the soundpost just fractions of a millimeter can change sound and reponse noticeable, that wood is a “living” material, that furthermore spruce is rather soft and will give way a little thus reducing tensions in some areas. This suggests, that the instrument’s sound and response will change over time, even if it is not played. This does _not_ imply that the frequency response of the plates themself changes. 6. Given the above, it can be assumed, that the type of change will depend on the force applied to the parts and the joints of the instrument. These forces are different between a quiet and a played instrument and I suppose that the distribution of tension in a violin is not a constant (just consider the fact, that temperature and air humidity have a measurable influence on the frequency response of a violin). Summary: If the abovementioned is correct, a new instrumen will: a) change it’s behavior if it is played for some time This change may or may not depend whether the instrument is played by a master who gets all out of it which is possible or an average or poor performing amateur. (I suppose it will depend, but that will have to be proved) b) change it’s behavior as well if it is just stored for the same time with it’s strings tuned, but the change will be different. c) An instrument which has undergone procedure a) might again change it’s behavior if it is stored for some time without being played. All the points above are just a hypothesis and will require exact measurements to be verified or falsified. Years ago I did some research together with a violin maker in Vienna as follows: We measured the frequency response of a perfectly tuned brand new instrument over a frequency range from 100 to 10000 Hz and plotted the responce curve. Then I played this violin for a month about an hour per day, and after that we measured the frequency reponse again. The response curve was very similar, but the maxima had shifted - in the range below 1500 Hz in direction to lower frequencies and above 2000 Hz slightly in direction to higher frequencies. I do not offer this as a proof, because the changes were in a range which could as well be caused by inaccuracies in the setup of the experiment and we had neither the time nor the money to refine the setup and repeat them often enough to be sure. I just suggest, that a lot of research must be done in this area before any final conclusion can be made. just my $0.02 ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/169 "2012-01-09T06:25:58Z")
It’s a myth. [http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/01/02/1114999109](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/01/02/1114999109) > [@](#): > > Most violinists believe that instruments by Stradivari and Guarneri “del Gesu” are tonally superior to other violins—and to new violins in particular. Many mechanical and acoustical factors have been proposed to account for this superiority; however, the fundamental premise of tonal superiority has not yet been properly investigated. Player’s judgments about a Stradivari’s sound may be biased by the violin’s extraordinary monetary value and historical importance, but no studies designed to preclude such biasing factors have yet been published. **We asked 21 experienced violinists to compare violins by Stradivari and Guarneri del Gesu with high-quality new instruments. The resulting preferences were based on the violinists’ individual experiences of playing the instruments under double-blind conditions in a room with relatively dry acoustics. We found that (i) the most-preferred violin was new; (ii) the least-preferred was by Stradivari; (iii) there was scant correlation between an instrument’s age and monetary value and its perceived quality; and (iv) most players seemed unable to tell whether their most-preferred instrument was new or old.** These results present a striking challenge to conventional wisdom. Differences in taste among individual players, along with differences in playing qualities among individual instruments, appear more important than any general differences between new and old violins. Rather than searching for the “secret” of Stradivari, future research might best focused on how violinists evaluate instruments, on which specific playing qualities are most important to them, and on how these qualities relate to measurable attributes of the instruments, whether old or new. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/170 "2012-01-09T06:50:15Z")
I saw this recent story and did think about reviving this thread but decided not to bother. But the latest test certainly seems to back the test I cited earlier in the thread. As I think someone on Fark put it, it seems that Stradivari (et al) are the Monster cables of stringed instruments. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/171 "2012-01-09T07:00:05Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It seems that Stradivari (et al) are the Monster cables of stringed instruments. FTFY: It seems that Stradivari (et al) are the[Pear](http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm)cables of stringed instruments. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/172 "2012-01-09T08:39:07Z")
wow, this was a dead thread. my 2 cents (adjusted for inflation): i read [an article](http://periodicals.faqs.org/201101/2274226291.html) breaking down the various tonal values and claims, and basically there’s no honest “Stradivarius” unaltered violins really left in some unadulterated form. the biggest factor being that each generation had to change various aspects of the intrument to keep it in working order, (redo the fretboard, change the neck, etc) which all would then adjust the tonal qualities to suit the current era of musical flavor. the article was in Skeptic Magazine. on a similarly interesting note: i read [someplace](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20119561,00.html)that Stradivari used 17th century alchemists to devise the shellac. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/173 "2012-01-09T11:45:32Z")
A well conducted (though rather small) blind test suggests that : [“Old, expensive violins are not always better than new, cheap ones”](http://www.economist.com/node/21542380) ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/174 "2012-01-09T17:42:47Z")
I find it interesting that **Ralph’s** spelling hasn’t improved in 8 years… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/175 "2012-01-09T17:51:52Z")
Moving to Cafe Society from GQ. Please note this is an old thread. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/176 "2012-01-09T18:00:05Z")
Since the thread started an excellent book on the subject appeared. [Stradivari’s Genius: Five Violins, One Cello, and Three Centuries of Enduring Perfection by Tony Faber](http://www.amazon.com/Stradivaris-Genius-Centuries-Enduring-Perfection/dp/0375508481). Faber goes through all the history and all the science and talks to people who play the instruments and those who try to duplicate them or better them. It’s all very readable, too. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/177 "2012-01-09T18:05:24Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I saw this recent story and did think about reviving this thread but decided not to bother. But the latest test certainly seems to back the test I cited earlier in the thread. As I think someone on Fark put it, it seems that Stradivari (et al) are the Monster cables of stringed instruments. That’s not quite a fair comparison. A $100 Monster cable (or a $7000 Pear cable) performs exactly as well as the cheapest fines cable that a dollar can buy. The Stradivari instruments, in this study, were compared to some of the best modern instruments, which cost five or six figures easily. That’s a lot less than the seven or eight figures that the best Stradivari or Guaneri instruments can command, but it’s still a hell of a lot more than the $50 machined POS violin that you hand to small children. The Stradivari and Guaneri violins are astonishingly good, but so are the best modern instruments. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/178 "2012-01-09T20:23:20Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > A well conducted (though rather small) blind test suggests that : [“Old, expensive violins are not always better than new, cheap ones”](http://www.economist.com/node/21542380) Very cool. But it would have been nice to know the identity of the modern violins. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/179 "2012-01-09T23:12:01Z")
Well, so much for violins. Is _sax_ as good as it used to be? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455/180 "2012-01-09T23:26:54Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > That’s not quite a fair comparison. A $100 Monster cable (or a $7000 Pear cable) performs exactly as well as the cheapest fines cable that a dollar can buy. The Stradivari instruments, in this study, were compared to some of the best modern instruments, which cost five or six figures easily. That’s a lot less than the seven or eight figures that the best Stradivari or Guaneri instruments can command, but it’s still a hell of a lot more than the $50 machined POS violin that you hand to small children. > > The Stradivari and Guaneri violins are astonishingly good, but so are the best modern instruments. The key point is that the claims made seem to be unfounded. Nobody, anywhere, has ever said merely that Stradivari are better than a machined POS violin. The claim always was that they are the creme de la creme, and better than anything modern. That claim appears to be false. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-reputed-hifg-quality-of-stradivari-viulins-a-myth/279455.md?page=10)