# Is "The right to Choose" real without reasonable access? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722 "2017-05-02T15:45:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/21 "2017-05-02T17:55:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Serious? The entity that fought tooth and nail (all the way to the Supreme Court) to make sure their handgun ban stayed in place? … Yeah, they’re really accomodating to the 2nd Amendment there in DC :rolleyes: Compared to states who want to drive doctors out of their borders; the facts say, yes, DC is more accepting of constitutional rights. > [@](#): > > You should go back to being part of Maryland if you want statehood. It’s ironic that we have these constitutional debates, and you routinely overlook important parts of the history of various constitutional provisions. Such as that Maryland would want to have DC back, just as Virginia voted several times for retrocession, and it is crystal clear that Maryland will not do the same. I would offer that your debating points are stronger when you stick to “yay guns!” as opposed to one-liners like that. On edit, I see **Czarcasm** ’s plea to restrain the debate to abortion… or at least, just not guns. But I think the unequivocal answer is that yes, states should not pursue policies to harass Americans such that they cannot exercise their rights within that state. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/22 "2017-05-02T18:02:07Z")
_“In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.”_ I personally think that laws requiring speech and/or video, etc. that is not medically necessary should be considered a 1st amendment violation. I’m not so sanguine about the undue burden argument. If the business cannot operate due to lack of utilization that is one thing, but creating an environment where they cannot operate due to bureaucratic red tape which is really thinly veiled attempts to limit the procedures is bad. Some of those bad ways could be unconstitutional, but not all necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/23 "2017-05-02T18:05:37Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Definitely those. Also the inability to get time off work. Either they have no sick/vacation days or they can’t afford to lose the income from missed days of work. OK, that’s progress. Can you demonstrate that the vast majority of women seeking abortion can’t get time off work, can’t afford to travel out of state, and believe that it is more private to visit a clinic in town rather than one in a different state? TIA. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/24 "2017-05-02T18:05:59Z")
From that article: > [@](#): > > Republicans, riding Donald J. Trump’s coattails, took control of the Kentucky House in November for the first time in 95 years. Their first order of business in January was to pass two measures restricting abortion — one banning the procedure after 20 weeks into a pregnancy, and the other requiring doctors to narrate ultrasounds in detail, regardless of patients’ wishes…The A.C.L.U. is also challenging the ultrasound measure, on the grounds that it violates doctors’ First Amendment rights. In signing it, Mr. Bevin vowed to “end this scourge that is the taking of innocent life,” adding, “Kentucky will lead the way.” It is rather clear that he signed them because he saw them as a tool to stop abortions, not because they were medically necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/25 "2017-05-02T18:07:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, that’s progress. Can you demonstrate that the vast majority of women seeking abortion can’t get time off work, can’t afford to travel out of state, and believe that it is more private to visit a clinic in town rather than one in a different state? How many more hoops would you like me to jump through before you weigh in with an opinion on the matter? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/26 "2017-05-02T18:14:37Z")
I agree with Czarcasm that it would be better if government officials did not use the levers of government to harass people trying to exercise rights that they disfavor, but It’s the nature of things. Places like DC, Chicago, New York, and California will push the envelope and go as far as they can to restrict the right to keep and bear arms, and places like red southern states will push the envelope as far as they can to restrict and limit abortions. I can think of lots of examples beyond things that we might think of as traditional Constitutional rights. Utah harasses the he’ll out of polygamists, and seems to take special interest in making smokers’ hobby as miserable as possible ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/27 "2017-05-02T18:15:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, that’s progress. Can you demonstrate that the vast majority of women seeking abortion can’t get time off work, can’t afford to travel out of state, and believe that it is more private to visit a clinic in town rather than one in a different state? > > TIA. > > Regards, > Shodan Come on man. You’ve been in enough threads about all the things poor people can’t do. This will turn into another one. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/28 "2017-05-02T18:21:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, that’s progress. Can you demonstrate that the vast majority of women seeking abortion can’t get time off work, can’t afford to travel out of state, and believe that it is more private to visit a clinic in town rather than one in a different state? Shodan, can you demonstrate for me that the vast majority of women can’t simply buy a plane ticket to Canada and receive an abortion there? As long as you are totally fine with your civil rights only technically having meaning, are you ok with : a. All guns and ammo can only be bought from stores on military bases. b. Those stores are only open on Tuesdays, from 11am to 3pm. Free speech only applies if you buy a speech license. They are $1000, and can only be bought from a ticket counter in Washington DC. You have the right to not be held without a trial. But only if you can afford a private attorney to challenge your detention in Federal court. And so on and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/29 "2017-05-02T18:28:32Z")
I don’t think the right to choose necessarily requires reasonable access. I don’t feel it’s a positive right where the government has to assist people in acquiring access. But that’s a moot argument because that’s not the issue we’re facing. The problem we have in this country is the government creating barriers to access. That’s a clear violation of the right to choose even by the standards of negative rights. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/30 "2017-05-02T18:28:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it reasonable to call it a “right” if you have to travel out-of-state to exercise it? > What if the governor of a state managed through legal harassment to cut off all means of acquiring a firearm in that state. Do you still have the right to keep and bear arms if you have to travel until you find a state that will sell you a gun? This is exactly what happens in DC. Of course you don’t have a right to bear arms and the registration process takes a pretty long time. Getting a gun might not seem as exigent as getting an abortion, but it might be if your ex-boyfriend is stalking you or if there have been a rash of robberies in your neighborhood. There are a lot of similarities between the abortion debate and the gun debate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/31 "2017-05-02T18:31:50Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Shodan, can you demonstrate for me that the vast majority of women can’t simply buy a plane ticket to Canada and receive an abortion there? I don’t usually try to prove things unless I say them. If you or **Czarcasm** want to try and prove what **AngelSoft** said, feel free. If you don’t, no one can blame you, if for no other reason than it is more than mildly overstated. Because **manson1972** is correct - it starts off with sweeping statements about vast majorities, and then rapidly develops into “but what if she can’t find a babysitter for her nine children? What if she is working 26 hours a day and can’t get the time off? What if she is in a wheelchair and the abortion clinic isn’t handicapped-accessible? Huh? Huh? What about THAT!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/32 "2017-05-02T18:35:40Z")
I lived in Rhode Island for quite some time. We drove up to MA for everything (except beaches). 🙂 I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the OP, if you’re going to argue from convenience. Rather, I’d argue that each state has the responsibility to ensure that _Roe_ is enforced, as per the current jurisprudence. The problem is, the only remedy you have is a constant stream of court cased every time a new law is passed. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/33 "2017-05-02T18:43:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I _knew_ I shouldn’t have used a gun analogy. :smack: > If we could please not hijack this, and get back on topic…Do you still have a right to an abortion, if you cannot exercise that right within reasonable means and/or have to travel out-of-state? Not a hijack.Why do you think more stringent rules should apply to a specifically enumerated right than one which exists due to judicial precedent? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/34 "2017-05-02T18:49:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because **manson1972** is correct - it starts off with sweeping statements about vast majorities, and then rapidly develops into “but what if she can’t find a babysitter for her nine children? What if she is working 26 hours a day and can’t get the time off? What if she is in a wheelchair and the abortion clinic isn’t handicapped-accessible? Huh? Huh? What about THAT!” Do you see a qualitative difference between “abortion clinics can exist anywhere a medical clinic is permitted in a state, with no _differing laws_ restricting them from medical clinics performing the same type of procedures” and “free abortions for everyone, everywhere!” The former is _not_ what these Southern states are doing. If they had a law saying “surgical abortions shall be regulated by the same laws governing clinics that perform outpatient abdominal surgery”, that’s fine. No special rules otherwise. Ditto the chemical ones. So sure, that woman in a wheelchair, if she can’t get access to outpatient abdominal surgery for other issues, she probably can’t get access to an abortion. That’s fine, it’s not like the state has a duty to carve out a special exception for abortion to it’s laws. Where you seem to be going is the route of “the states can pass any special laws they want, and it’s ok with me if you can’t show that there isn’t still an affordable route to an abortion for most women”. And in reality, that semi-affordable route is flying to Canada. Most women with a few thousand bucks to their name can do it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/35 "2017-05-02T18:59:56Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Not a hijack.Why do you think more stringent rules should apply to a specifically enumerated right than one which exists due to judicial precedent? “Which types of rights have precedent over others” is not the topic of this thread. If you want to start that thread, I’ll take a look at it though. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/36 "2017-05-02T19:01:26Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > If they had a law saying “surgical abortions shall be regulated by the same laws governing clinics that perform outpatient abdominal surgery”, that’s fine. No special rules otherwise. So you agree that all girls under 18 require a parent’s permission to have an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/37 "2017-05-02T19:13:08Z")
For those who think the OP is correct, how many abortion clinics does a state have to have before it is no longer violating a woman’s right to choose? Personally, I don’t think that “state X has no abortion clinics” is prima facia evidence that the abortion laws are too stringent. But even if it were, how would you figure out which one(s) was/were the straw that broke the camel’s back? I think you have to look at each law individually and see if passes muster per the latest SCOTUS jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/38 "2017-05-02T19:15:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you agree that all girls under 18 require a parent’s permission to have an abortion? Yes under the same conditions that parents may be overruled by medical necessity for things like life sustaining treatments. So now do you agree to the basic idea that the states cannot be more restrictive on abortions than other abdominal surgery or more restrictive on things like a morning after pill than similar medications? If you don’t, it seems moot. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/39 "2017-05-02T19:16:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > For those who think the OP is correct, how many abortion clinics does a state have to have before it is no longer violating a woman’s right to choose? Personally, I don’t think that “state X has no abortion clinics” is prima facia evidence that the abortion laws are too stringent. But even if it were, how would you figure out which one(s) was/were the straw that broke the camel’s back? I think you have to look at each law individually and see if passes muster per the latest SCOTUS jurisprudence. There is a world of difference between your “have to have”, and my “prevented from having” scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722/40 "2017-05-02T19:21:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is a world of difference between your “have to have”, and my “prevented from having” scenarios. The only evidence you offered in your OP as to why this is “effectively an abortion ban” is the lack of clinics. Did you mean to add some other evidence as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-right-to-choose-real-without-reasonable-access/785722.md?page=3)