# Is the Social Justice Movement Racist? (Content note: Mentions of rape) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055 "2015-03-26T19:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/21 "2015-03-26T21:52:55Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > Neither DMX, Ja Rule or Ghostface have had a hit record since the early 2000s. I don’t even think DMX or Ja Rule are still making music. Rick Ross was condemned by the “social justice movement” for his rapey lyrics on “U.O.E.N.O.,” and Reebok dropped him from an endorsement deal because of it. As you’re pointing out, the whole argument is based on something that is factually incorrect. Many rappers have been and continue to be the target of people, particularly women, seeking “social justice.” The Wikipedia article on misogyny in hip hop culture even has a section about [the responses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture), though the section doesn’t cover nearly the whole history of criticisms. Part of the problem is that the mass media isn’t very interested in black women or men criticizing misogynistic rappers, so the stories of people criticizing misogyny get relatively little coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/22 "2015-03-26T22:08:43Z")
Perhaps Unreconstructed Man is living under a wifi-equipped rock, unaware of, say, Tipper Gore’s crusade against 2 Live Crew in the eighties, and similar attacks on misogynistic rap and hip-hop ever since. He might genuinely think that the Social Justice Movement consists primarily of Anita Sarkeesian and the other recent targets of the Gamergate trolls, not realizing that it’s a centuries-old movement that’s mostly happened offline. If he’s talking specifically about stuff like articles at [jezebel.com](http://jezebel.com), then yeah, he might find that young white women tend to complain more about young white performers who are played in primarily-young-white dance clubs. This should be a pretty obvious point. But it speaks to provincialism, not to racism. People complain about what they know about, ignoring what they’re ignorant of, just as the OP appears to have done. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/23 "2015-03-26T22:16:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Rick Ross, Gunplay](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uh6E4xG9ZY) video: 873,000 views. (edit: I chose this one because it was second in your list; I couldn’t find an official video for the Lil Wayne song on Youtube at all.) > [Robin Thicke, Blurred Lines ft. TI Pherrell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDUC1LUXSU) video: 373,000,000 views. > > You imply that these two songs are equally significant in pop culture. But one simple pop-culture-pulse-taking suggests blurred lines is around 500 times more popular. Two points. Firstly, I didn’t imply that these two songs are _equally_ significant in pop culture. I merely said that Rick Ross, among others quoted, was “a mainstream hip-hop artist”. That’s undeniably true. He may not be as big as Robin Thicke, but he’s big enough. Secondly, all YouTube viewing statistics show is how many people watch a particular video. They don’t tell you _why_ people watch it. Blurred Lines was at the centre of a furious online controversy which lasted for several months. Do you think that could possibly have had an impact on the viewing statistics? Perhaps if the people who so strenuously objected to Blurred Lines had made similarly vocal objections to Gunplay, the disparity would be smaller. But hey, maybe you’re right. Maybe Rick Ross is too small-fry to be a valuable example. How about Lil Wayne? He’s had more entries on the Billboard 100 than any other musician of any genre in _history_, including Elvis. Regardless of the lyrics in his biggest hits (whatever they may be) his oeuvre is cluttered with lyrics so aggressively misogynistic they make Robin Thicke look like Mrs Pankhurst. Here’s some more: _“Money over bitches, bitch I’m coming for the check. Vampire living, bitch I’m coming for your neck. Raw! I’m sharp, my swagger like an X. I’m a motherfucking monster. I rap like I’m possessed. Call me Mr. Still Smoking, smoke it in a paper. The game is a bitch, hold her down and rape her”_ - Lil Wayne, Inkredible Remix. _"“Bout to put rims on my skateboard wheels. Beat that pussy up like Emmett Till.”_ - Lil Wayne, Karate Chop. Lil Wayne is, by the very same standards of the people who caused such an uproar about Blurred Lines, a repeat offender. So why has he escaped similar censure? I can’t believe it’s just because he’s canny enough to leave his most rapey, belittling lyrics on his B-Sides. > [@](#): > > You wonder why Thicke catches the heat for Blurred Lines more than Thicke? Maybe it has something to do with who gets top billing in the song, and who’s asked to perform it the most? Pharrell co-wrote the song and features prominently in the video. Y’know, the one with 373,000,000 views? And you’re telling me he was…what, overlooked? > [@](#): > > And then there’s the much larger and totally absurd implication that **in general** black men receive less censure for advocacy of violence against women than white men do. Nonsense. How much flak does John Lennon get for committing domestic violence? Eric Clapton? Elvis Presley? How about Chris Brown? Ray McDonald? Adrian Peterson? I think you’re making two errors here. The first is that you’re conflating _advocacy_ of violence against women with _actual_ violence against women. To the best of my knowledge, Lennon, Clapton, and Presley never wrote lyrics as overtly misogynistic as the ones I cited in my OP. Secondly, you’re comparing apples and oranges. You cite Lennon, Clapton, and Presley, but they all committed their abuses decades ago, before the age of instant communication, and in, frankly, somewhat less enlightened times. Their offences were easier to hide and harder to publicise, condemnation was more difficult to sustain, and the distressing impact of their actions has been blunted by time. None of these things are true about Brown, McDonald, and Peterson. Hence the disparity in levels of condemnation. Imagine if Elvis was alive today, as popular as he was in the 70s, and was caught on videotape knocking out his girlfriend in a lift like Ray Rice was. I find it hard to believe he’d be subject to less censure. A better example of a white man committing domestic violence and being roundly and very rightly condemned was Mel Gibson. That was in the news for months. Another point is that I’m completely willing to concede that when it comes to _actual_ violence, there is no noticeable difference in the extent to which black offenders and white offenders are condemned. This is a different issue to the one in my OP. When it comes to condemnations of misogyny _in lyrics_ the difference seems pretty stark. > [@](#): > > If anything, black men receive MORE censure for domestic violence than white men do, or for writing lyrics that promote it. I’m okay with the flak they catch, but not for how much white men get let off easy. The racism you suspect goes in the opposite direction. In all seriousness, I can’t think of a single white musician (apart from Eminem and Thicke) who is anywhere near as misogynistic as someone like Lil Wayne. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/24 "2015-03-26T22:20:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So you’re just here to talk about ethics in gaming journalism, right? > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Heh. This is a good catch. Actually, it’s associated online with figures like Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Susan B. Anthony, Harvey Milk, and so on. Seriously, look it up: people talking about social justice online are overwhelmingly talking about the same things as people talking about social justice on the telephone, in newspapers, in books, and in person. I’m aware that Social Justice extends beyond Gamer-gate. Bear in mind I was trying to explain the concept to someone who admitted he didn’t know what it was. I chose people who I thought would be both recognisable _and_ relevant to this specific conversation. That’s why I didn’t mention people like Gandhi (great man but also a deeply creepy misogynist) or MLK (another great man but also a serial adulterer). I didn’t think they were germane to this very specific topic. Sarkeesian and Valenti, being modern day and widely publicised critics of rape culture, both are. Or maybe I just spend too much time online. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/25 "2015-03-26T22:25:59Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Two points. Firstly, I didn’t imply that these two songs are _equally_ significant in pop culture. I merely said that Rick Ross, among others quoted, was “a mainstream hip-hop artist”. That’s undeniably true. He may not be as big as Robin Thicke, but he’s big enough. Big enough for **what**? I’d like you to cite a single song by Lil Wayne that’s gotten, let’s say, half the airplay of Blurred Lines, and then we can look at the response to that song. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/26 "2015-03-26T22:29:29Z")
Sorry, just need to clarify; are you asking me for an example from Rick Ross or Lil Wayne? You quoted one but then mentioned the other. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/27 "2015-03-26T22:52:09Z")
I have commented often to my husband about misogynistic lyrics in rap. Do I get a cookie? ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/28 "2015-03-26T22:53:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I have commented often to my husband about misogynistic lyrics in rap. Do I get a cookie? Too much sugar. Bad for your teeth. You get an avocado. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/29 "2015-03-26T23:10:33Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > _"“Bout to put rims on my skateboard wheels. Beat that pussy up like Emmett Till.”_ - Lil Wayne, Karate Chop. Just because you aren’t paying attention doesn’t mean no one condemned Lil Wayne: > **['Hurtful' Lil Wayne Lyric Prompts Apology From Epic Records](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/hurtful-lil-wayne-lyric-prompts-apology-from-epic-records-106930/)** > > Rapper made crude reference to death of Emmett Till on remix > **[Lil Wayne Apologizes to the Family of Emmett Till During Tour Stop](https://www.bet.com/article/ate0p4/lil-wayne-apologizes-to-the-family-of-emmett-till)** > > Weezy atones for lyrics involving slain teen. > **[PepsiCo drops Lil Wayne over Emmett Till lyric in rap song | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2013/05/03/showbiz/lil-wayne-emmett-till/)** > > PepsiCo is ending its relationship with rapper Lil Wayne over what the company calls an “offensive reference” to civil rights icon Emmett Till. > **[Lil Wayne Emmett Till: Song Reference Crossed the Line](https://www.mic.com/articles/30629/lil-wayne-emmett-till-song-reference-crossed-the-line)** > > Rapper Lil Wayne, born Dwayne Michael Carter, Jr., is no stranger to the press or to saying outrageous things. > This time, I don't believe he put much thought into what he said and wasn't prepared for the backlash that it brought about. Last... > **[Lil Wayne Puts Mountain Dew in Crisis Mode (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/business/media/mountain-dew-drops-lil-wayne-over-emmett-till-lyric.html?_r=0)** > > How Mountain Dew backed away from Lil Wayne’s “offensive” reference to Emmett Till. [http://www.vibe.com/2013/02/vibe-exclusive-open-letter-family-emmett-till-lil-wayne/](http://www.vibe.com/2013/02/vibe-exclusive-open-letter-family-emmett-till-lil-wayne/) [http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/emmett-family-seeks-apology-lil-wayne-article-1.1265256](http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/emmett-family-seeks-apology-lil-wayne-article-1.1265256) > **[Lil Wayne responds to family of Emmett Till over offensive lyric](https://www.salon.com/2013/05/02/lil_wayne_responds_to_family_of_emmett_till_over_offensive_lyric/)** > > The response comes two months after Epic Records pulled the track ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/30 "2015-03-26T23:10:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks, and welcome to the SDMB. Is it a specific organization, or a movement in more general terms? > > Regards, > Shodan Over the last eight months or so, online misogynists have been attacking women and those who stand up for feminist ideals by calling them, “social justice warriors” - as if that’s a bad thing to be. It’s a gender-based equivalent of the phrase, “nigger lover”. The “social justice movement” is not an organized group or movement or any kind of real thing. The OP is just using it in the sense of a collective noun, as in, “a bunch of social justice warriors”. Sarkeesian and Valenti are both feminists and have been major targets of the online hate mob, which is why they get name checked here, even though neither of them is involved with discussing the music scene, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/31 "2015-03-26T23:17:46Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Jesus Christ those are some awful lyrics. There could be a whole thread just on those lyrics. > > I don’t know anything about the Social Justice movement but you can’t tell me that lyrics like that don’t contribute to the way women are treated. You misspelled bitches, yo! It’s underlined, the word you maligned, it’s like a gramma crime! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/32 "2015-03-26T23:22:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You misspelled bitches, yo! It’s underlined, the word you maligned, it’s like a gramma crime! _throws avocado at John Mace_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/33 "2015-03-26T23:42:44Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Over the last eight months or so, online misogynists have been attacking women and those who stand up for feminist ideals by calling them, “social justice warriors” - as if that’s a bad thing to be. It’s a gender-based equivalent of the phrase, “nigger lover”. The “social justice movement” is not an organized group or movement or any kind of real thing. The OP is just using it in the sense of a collective noun, as in, “a bunch of social justice warriors”. Sarkeesian and Valenti are both feminists and have been major targets of the online hate mob, which is why they get name checked here, even though neither of them is involved with discussing the music scene, as far as I know. Yeah, this. Nobody self-identifies as a “Social Justice Warrior.” The primary value of the term is the amount of light it sheds on the actual motivations of the person using it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/34 "2015-03-26T23:42:25Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Over the last eight months or so, online misogynists have been attacking women and those who stand up for feminist ideals by calling them, “social justice warriors” - as if that’s a bad thing to be. It’s a gender-based equivalent of the phrase, “nigger lover”. The “social justice movement” is not an organized group or movement or any kind of real thing. The OP is just using it in the sense of a collective noun, as in, “a bunch of social justice warriors”. Sarkeesian and Valenti are both feminists and have been major targets of the online hate mob, which is why they get name checked here, even though neither of them is involved with discussing the music scene, as far as I know. Yeah, this. Nobody self-identifies as a “Social Justice Warrior.” The primary value of the term is the amount of light it shed on the actual motivations of the person using it. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/35 "2015-03-26T23:50:12Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Over the last eight months or so, online misogynists have been attacking women and those who stand up for feminist ideals by calling them, “social justice warriors” - as if that’s a bad thing to be. It’s a gender-based equivalent of the phrase, “nigger lover”. The “social justice movement” is not an organized group or movement or any kind of real thing. The OP is just using it in the sense of a collective noun, as in, “a bunch of social justice warriors”. Sarkeesian and Valenti are both feminists and have been major targets of the online hate mob, which is why they get name checked here, even though neither of them is involved with discussing the music scene, as far as I know. You’re misrepresenting me. I specifically said in my OP that I identify “As someone who believes in social justice”. I specifically said in post 24 that I name checked Sarkeesian and Valenti because their work is relevant to this particular topic insofar as they’re both critics of rape culture. I used the term “Social Justice” because, while the term “Social Justice **Warrior** ” _is_ pejorative, a great many progressives who campaign for social justice refer to themselves as advocates for _social justice_. Shodan was asking what the social justice _movement_ was, not what a social justice _warrior_ is. I was answering the former, you were answering the latter and then imputing motives to me that I don’t hold. Stop that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/36 "2015-03-26T23:54:51Z")
I’ve heard many who freely identify as “Social Justice Warriors” (and how could such an identifier be a _bad thing?_) criticize misogynistic and homophobic song lyrics sung/rapped by both white and black singers/rappers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/37 "2015-03-26T23:57:08Z")
So, OP, lots of examples have been given that show your premise is incorrect. Would you care to revise/rethink/offer me that cookie now? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/38 "2015-03-26T23:58:15Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > The Social Justice Movement is an umbrella term which covers people fighting misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and other forms of discrimination, either online or in real life. It’s associated online with figures like Anita Sarkeesian and Jessica Valenti. A term that’s so broadly defined it can mean almost anything effectively means nothings. I’m also not sure how many people actually know either of those women. I would be genuinely shocked if even 2% of all people had heard of either woman much less were fans of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/39 "2015-03-26T23:59:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So you’re just here to talk about ethics in gaming journalism, right? The op seems indeed concerned to me. He has concerns. He shares his sincere concerns. That’s what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/40 "2015-03-27T00:00:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A term that’s so broadly defined it can mean almost anything effectively means nothings. > > I’m also not sure how many people actually know either of those women. I would be genuinely shocked if even 2% of all people had heard of either woman much less were fans of them. I’ve heard of them only because of Gamergate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=3)