# Is the Social Justice Movement Racist? (Content note: Mentions of rape) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055 "2015-03-26T19:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/41 "2015-03-27T00:04:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve heard of them only because of Gamergate. Same and I’m not sure how many people have even heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/42 "2015-03-27T00:07:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Same and I’m not sure how many people have even heard of that. I imagine fairly few actually read enough to have any idea who these women are (and how incredibly horrifying and repugnant the gamers’ behavior was). As someone who didn’t know any of the personalities going in, I found it fairly hard going to understand what the hell was going on, though admittedly it was easy to understand that a bunch of cretins were being vicious on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/43 "2015-03-27T00:10:00Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Sorry, just need to clarify; are you asking me for an example from Rick Ross or Lil Wayne? You quoted one but then mentioned the other. Cheers. Either one–it’s your argument. I’m suggesting that none of the hiphop songs you’ve cited are within an order of magnitude–possibly within two orders of magnitude–of popularity of Blurred Lines. If you want to compare cultural criticism of the two, and not be comparing apples to watermelons, you need to give us a single example that’s similarly popular to Blurred Lines, using an appropriate measure of popularity. I don’t care whether it’s Rick Ross or Lil Wayne or Bill Cosby, you choose the black entertainer we’re supposed to be looking at and explain why you think they’re similar. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/44 "2015-03-27T00:43:26Z")
Social justice is just a euphemism for the distinctly less-friendly phrase “anything that is white male christian and hetero is fucking evil.” If you have to bone to pick on a particular issue, specify what the fuck you’re talking about. “Social justice” is what lazy College Democrats say to feel like they’re helping to change the world. Obama loves to use the phrase; does he even have a concrete notion of what it means, or is it just fodder for the PC left? As far as the OP is concerned, the topic at hand is the subtle racism of low expectations. Put simply: the media (and by extension, Americans as a whole) do not hold black artists to the same standards as white ones. Black artists, to their detriment, do not hold other black artists to the same standards either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/45 "2015-03-27T00:45:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Social justice is just a euphemism for the distinctly less-friendly phrase “anything that is white male christian and hetero is fucking evil.” Uh, do you know what a euphemism is? Because nobody on earth uses the phrase that way **except for** people who’d like to continue bigoted behaviors and prop up bigoted institutions. It’s a blitheringly stupid interpretation of the phrase, not remotely euphemistic. > [@](#): > > As far as the OP is concerned, the topic at hand is the subtle racism of low expectations. Put simply: the media (and by extension, Americans as a whole) do not hold black artists to the same standards as white ones. Black artists, to their detriment, do not hold other black artists to the same standards either. As for this, if you’d taken a moment to read the thread past the OP, you wouldn’t have embarrassed yourself by typing it. The OP at least had the excuse that there hadn’t been 40+ posts demonstrating the incorrectness of the premise when he posted it. Put simply, everything you say after “put simply” is factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/46 "2015-03-27T00:48:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, this. Nobody self-identifies as a “Social Justice Warrior.” The primary value of the term is the amount of light it sheds on the actual motivations of the person using it. Though the term originated as an epithet, it’s been appropriated by its targets, and now enough people self-identify as SJWs for [badges](http://boingboing.net/2014/10/05/social-justice-warrior-and-mo.html) to exist. (And, you’ll see on clicking the link, badges for Social Justice Mages, Social Justice Rogues, Social Justice Clerics, and so on. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/47 "2015-03-27T01:13:34Z")
Most people consider themselves to be fighting for what is right, just and good. Regardless of whether their side actually is right or not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/48 "2015-03-27T02:28:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Most people consider themselves to be fighting for what is right, just and good. Regardless of whether their side actually is right or not. While this is true, it’s not especially relevant, I think. “Social justice” tends to refer to an emphasis on changing social structures and norms in order to achieve justice. Plenty of people are suspicious of such efforts in general, thinking that justice is in general best achieved on a case-by-case basis and that widespread social change is both unnecessary and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/49 "2015-03-27T02:37:20Z")
I think another reason the “Social Justice” folks don’t go after rap artists is because they see it as punching down. i.e. It’s okay to criticize the privileged (white cis-gendered males) because you’re punching up but when you’re criticizing those who have no privilege (most everyone else I guess) it’s seen as punching down. And as at least one other person mentioned it’s probably because a lot of those rap songs really don’t have the popularity of something like “Blurred Lines.” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/50 "2015-03-27T02:47:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I suspect that’s the bigger issue; Taylor Swift could have a B-side talking about how she likes being choked out during sex, and it wouldn’t have much relative outcry because it wouldn’t be played on the radio, MTV or wherever. I don’t think you’re thinking of the same Taylor Swift as everyone else. If Taylor Swift had that as an album cut or even only at live shows the gossip shows and internet would instantly be trying to figure out who on the ‘long list of ex-lovers’ that applied to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/51 "2015-03-27T02:56:12Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > As someone who believes in social justice Incidentally, while it might make you feel good to make this claim, it’s a bit hard to know what to make of it. I only know you from your words here, and while you claim to “believe in” social justice, the entirety of your words on this board consist of making a weird and poorly-supported attack on the vaguely-identified “social justice movement.” To the extent that we’re going to consider the source of the attack, it hardly lends credibility to your charge. If you want people to take you seriously when you say you “believe in social justice,” it’d be helpful to see some demonstration of that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/52 "2015-03-27T03:53:30Z")
The term “social justice” itself is a reasonable term used to indicate the need for the amelioration of socioeconomic problems. However, the term has been seized by a certain movement of Internet-based fanatics who represent all the worst strands of the New Left (and I say this as someone on the centre-left) such as hatred of Western Civilization, Afrocentrism, kneejerk anti-capitalism, radical feminism, misandry, obsession with cultural trivialities, identifying everything as manifestations of “white supremacy”, moonbattery pseudoscience, and so forth. Nor is this merely strawmanning-I’ve seen quite a few people online who manifest this tendency to some degree. They do little that is useful but give excellent fodder for mockery by rightists (quite a few pages I follow on Facebook are of this nature) and alienate a whole bunch of sensible people especially when this SJW nonsense is tied in with the mainstream of the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/53 "2015-03-27T04:02:50Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > I don’t think you’re thinking of the same Taylor Swift as everyone else. > > If Taylor Swift had that as an album cut or even only at live shows the gossip shows and internet would instantly be trying to figure out who on the ‘long list of ex-lovers’ that applied to. I was being more facetious than anything, but my point was that despite the fact that it would start a bunch of intense curiosity, it would likely not damage her public image much, unless the song was played on the radio. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/54 "2015-03-27T05:03:37Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I’m willing to bet that of all the people reading this post, a significant percentage, upon reading the words “‘rape culture’ and popular music” immediately thought of Robin Thicke. If I’d started this thread a few years ago, those same people might have thought of Eminem. Now, I’m not defending either of them. They’re both misogynistic to the bone. But there are plenty of other artists who are equally misogynistic, and equally enthusiastic about rape, who don’t receive a fraction of the negative attention that the SJ movement directs towards Thicke and Eminem. Why is that? I don’t like to say it, but it seems to me that the only salient difference between the musicians that the SJ movement targets as examples of rape culture in action, and the equally misogynistic musicians that the SJ movement ignores, is race. Put bluntly, if you’re a black artist, the SJ movement gives you much more leeway to rhapsodise about rape and woman beating. > > Let me give you some examples. > … > Bizarrely, this unwritten rule seems to hold true within individual songs. After all, ‘Blurred Lines’ sent the SJ movement into a collective conniption for what seemed like an eternity, but almost all their outrage was directed toward Thicke himself. Why didn’t Pharrell and T.I. get the same treatment? The three of them wrote it together (well, Marvin Gaye helped, but never mind that). Why did Thicke bear the brunt? > > There are only two explanations I can think of, and neither of them are good. The first is that the SJ movement deliberately steers criticism away from black artists for fear of being called racist. The second (and I think this is the more likely one) is that many of the people in the SJ movement suffer from the racism of low expectationsexplanation. I’m slightly less concerned about the way that rappers of various races are treated when their lyrics mention rape, and slightly more concerned about the way people are treated when they commit rape. In the English city of Rotherham, the government ignored 1,400 cases of rape, [apparently because the victims were white and the rapists mainly Pakistani](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/opinion/multiculturalism-and-rape-in-rotherham.html?referrer=). Leftist narratives demand that whites be villains and non-whites victims. When the facts don’t fit the narrative, facts get ignored. It’s now causing enormous suffering, beyond just criticism of rap lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/55 "2015-03-27T08:51:29Z")
It’s fascinating how despite the OPs premise having been proven false\*, various concerned citizens ignore this to air similar and just as poorly thought out grievances. \*other than in the uninteresting interpretation that everyone who speaks out about anything bad should be obliged to speak out about everything bad. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/56 "2015-03-27T09:45:48Z")
> [@naita](#): > > It’s fascinating how despite the OPs premise having been proven false\*, various concerned citizens ignore this to air similar and just as poorly thought out grievances. Honestly at this point I’m only genuinely surprised the OP didn’t happen to be coincidentally joined by a host of other Join Date:Mar 2015 posters sharing the same extremely valid and sincere concerns. I guess 4chan is losing steam or something ? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/57 "2015-03-27T10:03:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m slightly less concerned about the way that rappers of various races are treated when their lyrics mention rape, and slightly more concerned about the way people are treated when they commit rape. In the English city of Rotherham, the government ignored 1,400 cases of rape, [apparently because the victims were white and the rapists mainly Pakistani](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/opinion/multiculturalism-and-rape-in-rotherham.html?referrer=). Leftist narratives demand that whites be villains and non-whites victims. When the facts don’t fit the narrative, facts get ignored. It’s now causing enormous suffering, beyond just criticism of rap lyrics. What repulsive, hateful nonsense. You clearly didn’t even read the article you linked to. Let’s give a little taste of what leftists say: > [@](#): > > What may seem like a story about race and religion, however, is as much one about power, class and gender. The Pakistanis who raped and pimped got away with it because they targeted a community even more marginal and vulnerable than theirs, a community with little voice and less muscle: white working-class girls. > > In the rush to denounce multiculturalism, it would be wise to consider not only what gave the perpetrators the license to abuse, but also to reflect on what led to the victims being so undervalued that their cries were ignored. So yeah, I know you desperately want to accuse leftists of being racists, but fail. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/58 "2015-03-27T10:33:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So yeah, I know you desperately want to accuse leftists of being racists, but fail. Silver lining time. It fails at being anything other than a nasty little bit of hateful ranting aimed at leftists. But I know there are some folks on the left who had trouble understanding what made **Der Trihs’s** posts so obnoxious to those on the right. Your mirror-image posting style may give those folks greater empathy. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/59 "2015-03-27T11:32:24Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > You’re misrepresenting me. I specifically said in my OP that I identify “As someone who believes in social justice”. Let me guess … some of your best friends are social justice warriors? > [@](#): > > I specifically said in post 24 that I name checked Sarkeesian and Valenti because their work is relevant to this particular topic insofar as they’re both critics of rape culture. And it’s just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that these two people you named have spent the last year being terrorized by those who think the social justice movement is hypocritical and wrong. And it’s just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that you also think the social justice movement (which - again - is not really a thing) is bad and wrong. > [@](#): > > I used the term “Social Justice” because, while the term “Social Justice **Warrior** ” _is_ pejorative, a great many progressives who campaign for social justice refer to themselves as advocates for _social justice_. Sure, because the last eight months have been spent explaining to morons that the phrase is not a pejorative. That’s not the same thing as being part of an organized movement. > [@](#): > > Shodan was asking what the social justice _movement_ was, not what a social justice _warrior_ is. I was answering the former, you were answering the latter and then imputing motives to me that I don’t hold. Right. It’s all just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that you’re here complaining about Sarkeesian and Valenti and “social justice” using the exact same arguments and language that terrorists have been using for the last eight months. It’s SO UNFAIR that anyone would connect you with all those other people who have been making the exact same argument that you’re making. > [@](#): > > Stop that. I’m not the only one who sees what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/60 "2015-03-27T11:51:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Same and I’m not sure how many people have even heard of that. As someone living across the Atlantic, I would never have heard of them (or GamerGate) but for Cracked article comments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=4)