# Is the Social Justice Movement Racist? (Content note: Mentions of rape) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055 "2015-03-26T19:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/81 "2015-03-28T13:18:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, is this just a random “Bitch about liberals” thread, now? It’s not a coincidence that Breitbart and Drudge are pro-Gamergate. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/82 "2015-03-28T13:46:55Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It’s not a coincidence that Breitbart and Drudge are pro-Gamergate. I’m essentially neutral to the Gamergate debate (although the /pol/ types have handled the situation with brilliant humour), but I know plenty of people on the left who even if not full-on Gamergaters at least sympathize with some of its aims. This isn’t anymore of a “bitch on liberals” thread than mocking some idiot Tea Party state legislator is a “bitch on conservatives” thread, unless of course you are one of those conservatives who thinks all liberals are Social Justice Warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/83 "2015-03-28T13:56:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’m essentially neutral to the Gamergate debate (although the /pol/ types have handled the situation with brilliant humour), but I know plenty of people on the left who even if not full-on Gamergaters at least sympathize with some of its aims. This isn’t anymore of a “bitch on liberals” thread than mocking some idiot Tea Party state legislator is a “bitch on conservatives” thread, unless of course you are one of those conservatives who thinks all liberals are Social Justice Warriors. Oh, man. Really? People who sympathize with Gamergaters, one of the least sympathetic movements of the past few years? It’s not exactly like sympathizing with the SAE frat, but I can’t say it’s actually better–at least the SAE frat didn’t deliberately send their shitty message to black people. Sympathy with Gamergaters’ goals puts you in extraordinarily bad company. I guess the message, if there is one, is that just being on the left doesn’t prevent a person from being a terrible person. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/84 "2015-03-28T14:49:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’m essentially neutral to the Gamergate debate (although the /pol/ types have handled the situation with brilliant humour), but I know plenty of people on the left who even if not full-on Gamergaters at least sympathize with some of its aims. This isn’t anymore of a “bitch on liberals” thread than mocking some idiot Tea Party state legislator is a “bitch on conservatives” thread, unless of course you are one of those conservatives who thinks all liberals are Social Justice Warriors. Gamergate is a domestic terrorist movement (and yes, I just used the word, ‘movement’), bent on silencing women in the technical field, including, but not limited to, gaming. It’s been going on at a low simmer for years - see, for example, [Kathy Sierra’s being attacked by a guy who’s an actual Nazi and White Supremecist](http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man)- but it was kicked into high gear last fall by Eron Gjoni’s epic attempt to slut shame his ex-girlfriend Zoe Quinn. Here’s Ars Technica’s recent interview with Quinn, talking about how her life has been changed irrevocably because of this - > **[“That life is over”: Zoe Quinn looks beyond GamerGate](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/03/that-life-is-over-zoe-quinn-looks-beyond-gamergate/)** > > Developer opens up about harassment, abuse, and continuing to advocate for indie games. Attacks on Quinn were organized on 4Chan (until it got too ugly even for them and they were kicked off to regroup at 8chan) and Reddit (see specifically Kotaku in Action). The harassment extended not just to Quinn but to her entire family, her friends, her coworkers, former classmates - basically anyone who’d ever been within ten feet of her. Over the next few months, other targets such Brianna Wu and Jenn Frank were harassed out of their homes and jobs. Anita Sarkeesian was forced to endure bomb threats at her speaking engagements. Here’s a cite with multiple screenshots from last fall of the sort of harassment being aimed at women - [https://storify.com/a\_man\_in\_black/gamergate-harassment](https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-harassment) At one point, Sarkeesian was forced to cancel an engagement at the Utah State because someone threatened to stage a deadly school shooting - > **[Anita Sarkeesian forced to cancel Utah State speech after mass shooting threat...](https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/tech/utah-anita-sarkeesian-threat/)** > > Anita Sarkeesian is no stranger to graphic threats. > [@](#): > > The academic and critic was supposed to deliver a speech to students Wednesday on the portrayal of women in video games, when someone sent an e-mail to several school staffers threatening “the deadliest school shooting in American history” if the event wasn’t canceled. > > According to the Standard-Examiner newspaper, the e-mail author, who claims to be a student, wrote, "Feminists have ruined my life and I will have my revenge, for my sake and the sake of all the others they’ve wronged Law enforcement was unable prevent people bringing firearms to the event because of a state law so she had to cancel. “But-but-but ethics! In Game Journalism!” - The whole ethics in game journalism claim (along with the stupid #notyourshield auxiliary bullshit) was never more than a fig leaf trying to hide the threats and hysteria. I said that Brietbart and Drudge were involved in promoting #Gamergate - it’s true. They’re doing it as a way to gin up anti-feminist sentiment ahead of Hilary’s presidential campaign. That link above from Storify includes some choice bits by Britbart UK poster and [shitty poet](https://storify.com/athenahollow/chris-kluwe-and), Milo Yiannopolus, including him harassing Brianna Wu about her dog’s death. You can read more about Milo’s development as a Gamergate hero here - > **[Gamergate's fickle hero: The dark opportunism of Breitbart's Milo Yiannopoulos](https://www.salon.com/2014/10/28/gamergates_fickle_hero_the_dark_opportunism_of_breitbarts_milo_yiannopoulos/)** > > Gamergate is full of men who have no real interest in the video game community. Their only cause is anti-feminism It’s a Salon link but you can follow the citations with in it even if you’re not keen on the packaging. Here’s [Breitbart.com](http://Breitbart.com) iteself with a search for Gamergate stories - you can clearly see how they’re fans of the movement. [http://www.breitbart.com/?s=gamergate](http://www.breitbart.com/?s=gamergate) Drudge … I know I’ve seen links to articles in re: gamergate on Drudge and even followed a few, but I can’t find them now. So I’ll remove Drudge’s name as a pro-GG fan for the moment. For now, I have to go walk my dog. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I guess the message, if there is one, is that just being on the left doesn’t prevent a person from being a terrible person. True enough, but be kind - at least some Gators are just morons. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/85 "2015-03-28T17:46:53Z")
A lot to respond to here. I’ll try to keep it brief. > [@davidw](#): > > Just because you aren’t paying attention doesn’t mean no one condemned Lil Wayne: > > [http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...cords-20130214](http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...cords-20130214) > [Celebrities, Music, News, Entertainment, TV Shows & Videos | BET](http://www.bet.com/news/music/2013/0...tour-stop.html) > [http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/03/showbi...e-emmett-till/](http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/03/showbi...e-emmett-till/) > [http://mic.com/articles/30629/lil-wa...ossed-the-line](http://mic.com/articles/30629/lil-wa...ossed-the-line) > [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/bu...yric.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/bu...yric.html?_r=0) > [http://www.vibe.com/2013/02/vibe-exc...ill-lil-wayne/](http://www.vibe.com/2013/02/vibe-exc...ill-lil-wayne/) > [http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.1265256](http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.1265256) > [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/02/lil\_...fensive\_lyric/](http://www.salon.com/2013/05/02/lil_...fensive_lyric/) Did I say that black artists who rhapsodise about rape receive _no_ condemnation? No. I said they received _less_ criticism. Much less, in many cases. And please note that the criticism you posted focusses on the “Emmett Till” part of the lyric, not the “Beat that pussy” lyric. Besides, ‘Blurred Lines’ received far, far more criticism and for far less misogynistic lyrics. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > I’m also not sure how many people actually know either of those women. I would be genuinely shocked if even 2% of all people had heard of either woman much less were fans of them. In the general population, maybe not. On this specific message board, which has played host to threads about Gamer-gate which are literally _thousands_ of posts long, I’d think the percentage would be higher. For what it’s worth, I consider myself fans (with some small caveats) of both of them. > [@Kobal2](#): > > The op seems indeed concerned to me. He has concerns. He shares his sincere concerns. That’s what he’s doing. A ‘concern troll’ is somebody who pretends to be part of a movement and then expresses fake concern about whether or not that movement has gone “too far” in an effort to derail it. My concern is that the social justice movement isn’t going _far enough_. Get it straight: from my point of view, _you’re_ concern trolling _me_. You’re the one doing the downplaying here, not me. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Big enough for **what?** I’d like you to cite a single song by Lil Wayne [or Rick Ross] that’s gotten, let’s say, half the airplay of Blurred Lines, and then we can look at the response to that song. Big enough that your claim that he somehow managed to slip his rapey lyrics under the radar is ridiculous on its face. How on earth am I supposed to answer your question, anyway? Is there a website which keeps track of the different amounts of airplay different records get? Do you have any idea how many music outlets there are in the world? If you include internet radio stations there are hundreds, maybe even thousands. Do I include Deezer and Spotify in that? One thing’s for sure, Lil Wayne and Rick Ross have had far longer and far more successful careers than Robin Thicke. Imagine if Thicke had never sung ‘Blurred Lines’, but instead had a track on his album that contained lyrics like these: _“My nigga gutter kidnaps kids, fucks 'em in the ass and throws 'em off a bridge”_ - Notorious B.I.G. _"Rape a pregnant bitch and tell my friends I had a threesome”_ - Tyler The Creator. _“Who else in a hurry to murk, We kill girls, rape em’, bury their skirts”_ - Cam’ron. Are you seriously telling me that the same people who spent months complaining (rightly, I must reiterate) about ‘Blurred Lines’ wouldn’t have heard about it? We live in a world of instant communication. Everyone gets to hear about everything. Why is it that only certain artists bear the brunt of the internet’s outrage? And why is the racial divide between those who do and those who don’t so very clear, even when the actual _content_ of the lyrics which are mysteriously overlooked is so, so, so much worse? As **Anaamika** said “You can’t tell me that lyrics like that don’t contribute to the way women are treated.” This stuff virtually _exalts_ rape culture. Why is the outcry so muted compared to that which greets any new record by Eminem or Thicke? By the way, those three new examples I just cited? 9 million views, 4 million views, and 3 million views respectively. Nothing compared to Blurred Lines, of course, but, as I’ve already stated, the figures for Blurred Lines were doubtless massively inflated by the controversy surrounding both the lyrics and the video. > [@Stringbean](#): > > Social justice is just a euphemism for the distinctly less-friendly phrase “anything that is white male christian and hetero is fucking evil.” Nonsense. Social Justice is actually a vitally important movement aimed at bringing everyone who _isn’t_ white, male, Christian and hetero up to their level. > [@Odesio](#): > > I think another reason the “Social Justice” folks don’t go after rap artists is because they see it as punching down. i.e. It’s okay to criticize the privileged (white cis-gendered males) because you’re punching up but when you’re criticizing those who have no privilege (most everyone else I guess) it’s seen as punching down. The rappers I cited are all very successful. Lil Wayne, in particular, is one of the most successful musicians in history. They’ve got plenty of privilege, albeit not racial privilege. Their lyrics, however, objectify women in horrifying ways which cannot fail to translate into negative perceptions towards them. Objecting to lyrics like these is a way of _fighting_ male sexual privilege. > [@ITR Champion](#): > > I’m slightly less concerned about the way that rappers of various races are treated when their lyrics mention rape, and slightly more concerned about the way people are treated when they commit rape. Then start your own thread. Please don’t hijack this one. This goes for everyone responding to this tangent. > [@naita](#): > > It’s fascinating how despite the OPs premise having been proven false\*, various concerned citizens ignore this to air similar and just as poorly thought out grievances. > > \*other than in the uninteresting interpretation that everyone who speaks out about anything bad should be obliged to speak out about everything bad. What a strange reading of my argument. The lyrics I quoted are _worse_ than the lyrics in ‘Blurred Lines’. Much worse. Robin Thicke coyly refers to date rape (with Pharrell’s help, lest we forget), and is pilloried from here to the fucking moon. Meanwhile, Lil Wayne, Cam’ron, and Rick Ross explicitly boast about raping women at gunpoint, murdering them and and burying them in a ditch and the result is…well, not _nothing_, but certainly much less. If a person could only object to one of these things, surely it would make sense to object to the latter. Besides, most people are capable of complaining about more than one thing at a time. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Honestly at this point I’m only genuinely surprised the OP didn’t happen to be coincidentally joined by a host of other Join Date:Mar 2015 posters sharing the same extremely valid and sincere concerns. I guess 4chan is losing steam or something ? Maybe you should join them and beef up their numbers? You’re clearly blithely unconcerned about lyrics that boast of raping and torturing women. You’d probably fit right in. > [@Merneith](#): > > Let me guess … some of your best friends are social justice warriors? > … > And it’s just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that these two people you named have spent the last year being terrorized by those who think the social justice movement is hypocritical and wrong. And it’s just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that you also think the social justice movement (which - again - is not really a thing) is bad and wrong. > … > Sure, because the last eight months have been spent explaining to morons that the phrase is not a pejorative. That’s not the same thing as being part of an organized movement. > … > Right. It’s all just a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE that you’re here complaining about Sarkeesian and Valenti and “social justice” using the exact same arguments and language that terrorists have been using for the last eight months. It’s SO UNFAIR that anyone would connect you with all those other people who have been making the exact same argument that you’re making. Jesus, I _don’t_ think the social justice movement is “bad and wrong”! I’ve said that about five times. Can none of you people fucking read? Look, Merneith, I’m not going to bother addressing this drivel point by point because you’re clearly determined not to believe me. Luckily, the integrity of my argument doesn’t depend on my ability to justify myself to you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/86 "2015-03-28T18:04:49Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Did I say that black artists who rhapsodise about rape receive _no_ condemnation? No. I said they received _less_ criticism. Much less, in many cases. Your entire argument rests on a Gish gallop of anecdotal evidence. It’s totally unconvincing. Here’s the thing: Blurred Lines is one of the very, very few times a white artist has caught serious shit for lyrics that glorify sexual violence. THe entire genre of hiphop regularly catches shit for misogyny. If you want to make your argument, stop the Gish Gallop. Give us one particular example of a musical track by a black musician that’s had mainstream success, and give us one particular example of a musical track by a white musician that’s had **equivalent** mainstream success, and we’ll look at how these tracks have been crtiicized. BUt until then, your huge number of apples-to-antelopes comparisons means that any time someone gives a counterexample, you’re just going to say, “No, those aren’t the same because of X.” Give us ONE example you DO think is the same in all ways except how it’s been criticized, and we’ll talk. Until then, the argument doesn’t rise to the level where it can even be discussed reasonably. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/87 "2015-03-28T18:08:57Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Jesus, I _don’t_ think the social justice movement is “bad and wrong”! I’ve said that about five times. Can none of you people fucking read? As for this: we can read. We can read that despite your protestations, you joined the messageboard and have posted about nothing except how you think the Social Justice movement is racist against white people. Your claims about yourself don’t jibe with your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/88 "2015-03-28T18:28:23Z")
[QUOTE=Unreconstructed Man] A ‘concern troll’ is somebody who pretends to be part of a movement and then expresses fake concern about whether or not that movement has gone “too far” in an effort to derail it. My concern is that the social justice movement isn’t going _far enough_. Get it straight: from my point of view, _you’re_ concern trolling _me_. You’re the one doing the downplaying here, not me. [/QUOTE] Wrong definition, wrong conclusion from it. [QUOTE=Unreconstructed Man] Maybe you should join them and beef up their numbers? You’re clearly blithely unconcerned about lyrics that boast of raping and torturing women. You’d probably fit right in. [/QUOTE] Oh, bravo, goon sir, bravo. Your troll-fu is strong. Here, let me respond. I hereby assert that the only reason my opponent holds the positions he does is that he routinely has sexual congress with ovines. My debate opponent is a sheepfucker. Retort. “Of course it ain’t true, I just want to hear him deny it” - LBJ ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/89 "2015-03-28T18:42:55Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > What a strange reading of my argument. The lyrics I quoted are _worse_ than the lyrics in ‘Blurred Lines’. Much worse. Robin Thicke coyly refers to date rape (with Pharrell’s help, lest we forget), and is pilloried from here to the fucking moon. Meanwhile, Lil Wayne, Cam’ron, and Rick Ross explicitly boast about raping women at gunpoint, murdering them and and burying them in a ditch and the result is…well, not _nothing_, but certainly much less. If a person could only object to one of these things, surely it would make sense to object to the latter. How does this relate to my observations of others joining the thread? Your premise is simply false. Robin Thicke had a mega-hit that was played everywhere, constantly to a huge audience, despite insidious lyrics. This lead to the criticism also being big and obvious. Criticism of misogyny in pop music in general and in specific genre is much less obvious, and that’s what you need to compare with. Not the most spectacular case in the age of social media self-reinforcement. Misogyny in rap is much more pervasive and in your face and is being criticised all the time, but that’s been the case for a long time. [Misogyny in hip hop culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_hip_hop_culture) has a separate wikipedia page, the misogyny and glorification of violence and crime in hip hop has been the subject of a congressional hearing. With that in mind, look at your conclusions again, and maybe you’ll be able to come up with some theories that are better than what you present as “all you can think of” in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/90 "2015-03-28T18:57:00Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If you want to make your argument, stop the Gish Gallop. Give us one particular example of a musical track by a black musician that’s had mainstream success, and give us one particular example of a musical track by a white musician that’s had equivalent mainstream success, and we’ll look at how these tracks have been criticised. Okay, how about this: Exhibit A Lil Wayne feat. Drake - Love Me. Released Jan. 8th 2013. Peak Billboard position - 9. YouTube views: One hundred and forty million hits ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY44zvhWhp4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY44zvhWhp4)). Lyric “highlights”: 1. _“Those hos love me like Satan”_ 2. _“All she eat is dick. She’s on a strict diet”_ 3. _"She said “I never want to make you mad. I just want to make you proud”. I said “Baby just make me cum, then don’t make a sound”_ 4. _“These hoes got pussies like craters. Can’t treat these hoes like ladies, maaaan!”_ 5. _“She wake up, eat this dick. Call that breakfast in bed, $69.96”_ Internet reaction: Pretty much nothing, far as I can tell. Exhibit B Eminem - The CXVPHER Freestyle - Released: Never, it was just a freestyle video for a competition. Peak Billboard position: N/A, it was just a freestyle video for a competition. YouTube views: Six million hits - Bear in mind, however, that the YouTube video includes other rappers and some of those views would be from fans of those other rappers, not Eminem. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzRDayKxTk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzRDayKxTk)) Lyric “highlights” _“I’ll punch Lana Del Rey right in the face twice, like Ray Rice in broad daylight in the plain sight of the elevator surveillance, ’til her head is banging on the railing, then celebrate with the Ravens”_ Internet reaction: > **[Lana del Rey is just the latest woman to be attacked by Eminem](https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/11/eminem-cant-stop-attacking-lana-del-rey-cxvpher-freestyle)** > > His latest violent rap in CXVPHER Freestyle shows how little our attitudes to women have changed in the 15 years since he shot to fame, writes Britt Julious [http://jezebel.com/like-iggy-azalea-were-all-bored-of-eminems-thirsty-sh-1661327917](http://jezebel.com/like-iggy-azalea-were-all-bored-of-eminems-thirsty-sh-1661327917) > **[Celebuzz](https://www.celebuzz.com/)** > > Celebuzz [http://perezhilton.com/2014-11-11-eminem-says-hit-lana-del-rey-like-ray-rice-wife#.VRb3qimZapE](http://perezhilton.com/2014-11-11-eminem-says-hit-lana-del-rey-like-ray-rice-wife#.VRb3qimZapE) > **[Eminem Raps About Punching Lana Del Rey in the Face "Like Ray Rice" - E! Online](https://www.eonline.com/news/596893/eminem-raps-about-punching-lana-del-rey-in-the-face-like-ray-rice)** > > Rapper generally takes a controversial stance on pop culture topics [http://www.vh1.com/music/tuner/2014-11-11/eminem-threatens-to-punch-lana-del-rey-like-ray-rice/](http://www.vh1.com/music/tuner/2014-11-11/eminem-threatens-to-punch-lana-del-rey-like-ray-rice/) > **[Eminem raps that he'll punch Lana Del Rey 'in the face twice like Ray Rice'](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/11/eminem-ray-rice-lana-del-rey-violence-rap)** > > The 42-year-old father of three daughters says he’ll ‘celebrate with the Ravens’ afterwards. [http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/p4k-eminems-music-has-been-unrelievedly-awful-now-for-a-full-decade.454309455/](http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/p4k-eminems-music-has-been-unrelievedly-awful-now-for-a-full-decade.454309455/) Ad nauseum. Now, you can quibble over whose lyrics are worse but two things are undeniable. The first is that both sets of lyrics are fucking awful, and misogynistic to the bone. The second is that Exhibit A is far, far more high profile than exhibit B, but you could never tell that from the reaction. I know that these two examples don’t have _equivalent_ success. I’ve gone one better than that. I’ve given you an example of a white rapper receiving far more controversy for a one-off freestyle that was never released as a single, and another example of a black rapper receiving next to no controversy for one of the biggest and most relentlessly misogynistic hits of 2013. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/91 "2015-03-28T19:30:27Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As for this: we can read. We can read that despite your protestations, you joined the messageboard and have posted about nothing except how you think the Social Justice movement is racist against white people. Your claims about yourself don’t jibe with your actions. I missed this. There’s a fundamental misunderstanding here, which may be my fault for not being clear enough. I don’t think the Social Justice movement is racist against white people. Like I said, the criticism Thicke and Eminem received is totally 100% deserved, IMO. My worry is that the Social Justice movement is, if perhaps only subconsciously, racist against _black_ people by shying away from holding black hip-hop artists to the same standards as white hip-hop artists. It’s the racism of low expectations, basically, and it’s all the more troubling because it’s so insidious. The people who are most likely to bear the brunt of the negative effects of misogyny in the lyrics of black hip-hop artists are probably black women, after all. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/92 "2015-03-28T20:09:30Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > My worry is that the Social Justice movement is, if perhaps only subconsciously, racist against _black_ people by shying away from holding black hip-hop artists to the same standards as white hip-hop artists. And your evidence for this is your gut? Because what you’ve shown so far isn’t supporting your argument at all. ETA: Apologies. I did not see the post you made before this. I’ll read that now. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/93 "2015-03-28T20:30:29Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Now, you can quibble over whose lyrics are worse but two things are undeniable. First, I don’t think we can quibble over whose lyrics are worse. One of them is talking about using women as sexual objects, but with no hint that they are being assualted, raped, beaten up, etc. Severely disrespected yes. The other is talking about beating a specific named woman unconscious. Are you actually, genuinely surprised that someone singing abotu beating a known woman unconscious causes more of a furor than disrespecting women and calling them hos? Second, I googled for about three minutes and found tons of people talking about how disgusting they find Lil Wayne in general and this song specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/94 "2015-03-28T20:44:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > First, I don’t think we can quibble over whose lyrics are worse. One of them is talking about using women as sexual objects, but with no hint that they are being assualted, raped, beaten up, etc. Severely disrespected yes. > > The other is talking about beating a specific named woman unconscious. > > Are you actually, genuinely surprised that someone singing about beating a known woman unconscious causes more of a furor than disrespecting women and calling them hos? Well, let me put it this way; which is more likely into translate to actual, real-world disrespect to women? I doubt Eminem or any of his fans are actually going to be punching Lana Del Rey any time soon. Conversely, when Lil Wayne throws around words like bitches and ho’s and casually depicts women as nothing more than sex objects as though it were the most natural thing in the world (and in one of the biggest singles of 2013, no less!) it simply _can’t not_ have a damaging effect on how some of his male fans (particularly younger, more impressionable ones) view women and how some of his similarly young and impressionable female fans view themselves. This is not to say that I’m declaring Lil Wayne’s lyrics to be objectively worse, just that I think I have good reasons for considering them to be in the same ballpark. > [@](#): > > Second, I googled for about three minutes and found tons of people talking about how disgusting they find Lil Wayne in general and this song specifically. Really? Your Google-fu must be a lot better than mine. I googled around myself and couldn’t really find anything more than some blog posts, at least relating to this particular song. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/95 "2015-03-28T20:49:29Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Well, let me put it this way; which is more likely to translate to actual, real-world disrespect to women? And which, if it did, would land women in the hospital? American culture is really fucking misogynistic. There is no doubt about that. And a ton of rap and hip-hop lyrics are, too. But there is a difference, in my mind, between “I’m going to have sex with you but I don’t like or respect you” and “I’m going to rape you or knock you unconscious.” Both are bad. The latter is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/96 "2015-03-28T21:05:46Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Well, let me put it this way; which is more likely into translate to actual, real-world disrespect to women? I doubt Eminem or any of his fans are actually going to be punching Lana Del Rey any time soon. Conversely, when Lil Wayne throws around words like bitches and ho’s and casually depicts women as nothing more than sex objects as though it were the most natural thing in the world (and in one of the biggest singles of 2013, no less!) it simply _can’t not_ have a damaging effect on how some of his male fans (particularly younger, more impressionable ones) view women and how some of his similarly young and impressionable female fans view themselves. > > This is not to say that I’m declaring Lil Wayne’s lyrics to be objectively worse, just that I think I have good reasons for considering them to be in the same ballpark. > > Really? Your Google-fu must be a lot better than mine. I googled around myself and couldn’t really find anything more than some blog posts, at least relating to this particular song. What makes you think Lil Wayne’s fans are more likely to beat women than Eminem’s fans? Is it that fewer of them are white? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/97 "2015-03-28T22:06:07Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Okay, how about this: > Exhibit A > > Lil Wayne feat. Drake - Love Me. Released Jan. 8th 2013. Peak Billboard position - 9. YouTube views: One hundred and forty million hits ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY44zvhWhp4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY44zvhWhp4)). > > Lyric “highlights”: > > 1. _“Those hos love me like Satan”_ > > 2. _“All she eat is dick. She’s on a strict diet”_ > > 3. _"She said “I never want to make you mad. I just want to make you proud”. I said “Baby just make me cum, then don’t make a sound”_ > > 4. _“These hoes got pussies like craters. Can’t treat these hoes like ladies, maaaan!”_ > > 5. _“She wake up, eat this dick. Call that breakfast in bed, $69.96”_ > > Internet reaction: Pretty much nothing, far as I can tell. > > Exhibit B > > Eminem - The CXVPHER Freestyle - Released: Never, it was just a freestyle video for a competition. Peak Billboard position: N/A, it was just a freestyle video for a competition. YouTube views: Six million hits - Bear in mind, however, that the YouTube video includes other rappers and some of those views would be from fans of those other rappers, not Eminem. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzRDayKxTk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzRDayKxTk)) > > Lyric “highlights” > > _“I’ll punch Lana Del Rey right in the face twice, like Ray Rice in broad daylight in the plain sight of the elevator surveillance, ’til her head is banging on the railing, then celebrate with the Ravens”_ Wow. I ask you to give an example of songs whose lyrical content is similar, and **this** is what you come up with? Are you **sure** this is the example you want to hang your argument on? Let me know if you’re sure, and I’ll respond, but I want to be sure you don’t want to come up with something better first. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/98 "2015-03-28T22:12:25Z")
[Before](http://newpittsburghcourieronline.com/2013/06/28/objectified-misogyny-in-hip-hop-music-continues/) [you](http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2013/12/the_top_10_misogynistic_songs.php?page=3) [do](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/parenting-in-the-hip-hop-age-of-lil-wayne-wife-beaters-domestic-violence-and-misogyny/2012/01/04/gIQA4ovDfP_blog.html), [think](http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/viral-videos/472749/watch-little-girls-berate-lil-wayne-over-misogynistic-lyrics) [carefully](https://www.google.com/search?q=lil+wayne+misogynist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8). ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/99 "2015-03-28T22:19:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wow. I ask you to give an example of songs whose lyrical content is similar, and **this** is what you come up with? Are you **sure** this is the example you want to hang your argument on? Let me know if you’re sure, and I’ll respond, but I want to be sure you don’t want to come up with something better first. Sure, have at it. I’m sure there are other examples but it’s late where I am and I don’t fancy digging them up right now. I’d be interested to see what you think of this example first. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055/100 "2015-03-28T22:24:36Z")
Perhaps you’d like to use as one of your examples [I Just Can’t Let You Say Goodbye](http://www.lyricsfreak.com/w/willie+nelson/i+just+cant+let+you+say+goodbye_20649348.html), the song that got Willie Nelson such universal condemnation for misogyny: > [@Willie Nelson](#): > > The flesh around your throat is pale > Intended by my fingernails > Please don’t scream and please don’t cry > Cause I just can’t let you say goodbye > > Your voice is still, it speaks no more > You’ll never hurt me anymore > Death is a friend to love and I > Cause now you’ll never say goodbye [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-social-justice-movement-racist-content-note-mentions-of-rape/716055.md?page=6)