# Is the Stetson hat in movie westerns a fraud? Is the Derby/Bowler really The Hat That Won the West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835 "2011-12-02T14:04:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/1 "2011-12-02T14:04:16Z")
Background: I was researching an old photograph, which featured a lot of men in derby hats. Trying to date the photograph, I went to the [Wikipedia article on the derby hat (a/k/a the bowler, coke hat, billyhat and bombin)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowler_hat). There, I was surprised to read this: > [@](#): > > The bowler, not the cowboy hat or sombrero, was the most popular hat in the American West, prompting Lucius Beebe to call it “the hat that won the West.” Both cowboys and railroad workers preferred the hat because it wouldn’t blow off easily in strong wind, or when sticking one’s head out the window of a speeding train. It was worn by both lawmen and outlaws, including Bat Masterson, Butch Cassidy, Black Bart, and Billy the Kid. It is in America the hat came to be commonly known as the “Derby.” Now, I had of course seen the famous photos of [Bat Masterson](http://www.kshs.org/portraits/graphics/masterson_bat.jpg) and [Butch Cassidy](http://noblebandits.asu.edu/Bio/Butch.jpg) wearing derby hats, but it was news to me that the derby was in fact the predominant head accessory of the old West. (You mean Hollywood has _lied_ to us???) I looked up the first cite, which turns out to be a newspaper article from 1957: [The Hat That Won the West](http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xQQpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PkgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7036%2C5636283). It appears to be well-researched: > [@](#): > > A few years ago the writer was engaged in preparing for book publication a pictorial record of the Old West. > > He examined literally thousands upon thousands of contemporary illustrations, especially photographs, and time after time he became haunted by what at first seemed a recurrent and indefinable but ever present anachronism. > > At length it dawned on him that a formidably large proportion of the population of the Old West, the Wild West, the West of everybody but Frederic Remington and his imitators were wearing derby hats and not Stetsons. Does anyone have reason to doubt the truth of this statement? Are there any Westerns which have depicted the majority of men in derby hats rather than Stetsons? And what of the cowboy boot? Is Hollywood lying to me about that, too? Is the entire self-image of Texas built on a fraud? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/2 "2011-12-02T14:48:38Z")
I’m pretty sure the Calvary wore the blue stetson. > **[Stetson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stetson)** > > Stetson is an American brand of hat manufactured by the John B. Stetson Company. "Stetson" is also used as a generic trademark to refer to any campaign hat, particularly in Scouting. > John B. Stetson gained inspiration for his most famous hats when he headed west from his native New Jersey for health reasons. On his return east in 1865, he founded the John B. Stetson Company in Philadelphia. He created a hat that has become symbolic of the pioneering American West, the "Boss of the Plains". Thi... I think you’re right about most Western men wearing the Derby. The stetsons advantage was out on the plains herding livestock. The extra wide brim shaded the face & neck. Those work hats would get dirty and sweaty. They may have worn derbys in town. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/3 "2011-12-02T14:56:07Z")
My problem with this theory is that relying on old photographs is not an accurate means of tracking “every day” wear versus “Sunday-go-to-meeting” clothes. Photos were relatively new, relatively pricey, and people tended to dress in their best for them. I know for a fact that people often had different hats for different purposes; my great-grandfather (who eventually ran a shoe store in Bisbee AZ during the famous gunfight at Brewery Gulch but also worked a small ranch) passed down two hats to my grandfather - a bowler type that was his “store” hat, and a cowboy type that was his “field” hat. The bowler _was_ a much nicer hat, and the one he’d wear for pictures, strolling with his lady about town, or going on a nice train trip (people used to dress up for travel), but the cowboy hat was better at protecting him from the sun when he was working out in the field. My own personal experience (I love hats!) has been the same - I love the look of a bowler, but it doesn’t keep the sun off the back of your neck. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/4 "2011-12-02T14:57:17Z")
Dangnabbit, _aceplace57_, you beat me to it! That’s it, you varmint - pistols at noon! You wear yer derby, I’ll wear the stetson. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/5 "2011-12-02T15:05:26Z")
No proof to offer either way; but it was always my assumption that the derby was the hat worn in town; and a traditional cowboy hat was worn while working. Much like a ball cap today, worn frequently by people working outdoors. From [hatistory.com](http://hatistory.com): “Bigger brimmed soft felt hats became the fashion of fall and winter, and the derby became a hat for special or formal occasions.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/6 "2011-12-02T15:31:04Z")
After posting this thread it occurred to me that I have some anecdotal evidence from my own family to offer. My grandfather spent the 1890s in Bell County, Texas and Martha, Oklahoma. I have two photos of him from that period, and in both he is wearing a Stetson. [Pic 1](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/JMWattsinfrontofbrotherHarveysstoreMarthaOK.jpg). [Pic 2](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/JimWatts2.jpg). But I am still intrigued by the notion of dusty cow-towns populated by men in bowlers. (Even if those were only their going-into-town hats.) It would be interesting to see a Western depicting that. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/7 "2011-12-02T15:35:59Z")
I’ve nothing to say about the hats, Spoke, but oh, how handsome your grandfather is in photo two. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/8 "2011-12-02T15:46:56Z")
Thank you **Tapiotar**. Yes, he was a pretty striking dude, I guess. He died years before I was born, so I never got to know him. Would have loved to have heard stories of Texas in the 1890s. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/9 "2011-12-02T15:46:56Z")
Screwed up the format. So just forget it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/10 "2011-12-02T15:47:22Z")
I just remembered bowlers in a Western. 😉_Far and Away_, Tom Cruise and many of the men wore bowlers or caps. The flat cap has been around since the middle ages. I bet a lot of immigrants wore them even after coming to the west. A accurate Western movies would show people in bowlers, caps, and stetsons. [http://fashionsfrontline.blogspot.com/2011/07/must-have-looks-hats.html](http://fashionsfrontline.blogspot.com/2011/07/must-have-looks-hats.html) > [@](#): > > The style can be traced back to the 14th century in Northern England namely Grimsby and parts of Southern Italy, when it was more likely to be called a “bonnet”, which term was replaced, except in Scotland, by “cap” before about 1700.[1] When Irish and English immigrants came to the United States, they brought the flat cap with them. > **[Flat cap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_cap)** > > A flat cap is a rounded cap with a small stiff brim in front, originating in Northern England. The hat is also known in Ireland as a paddy cap; in Scotland as a bunnet; in Wales as a Dai cap; and in the United States as an English cap or Irish cap. Various other terms exist (scally cap, cabbie cap, driver cap, golf cap, longshoreman cap, ivy cap, jeff cap, train engineer cap and sixpence amongst others). Flat caps are usually made of tweed, wool or cotton, while some are made using leath The styl... ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/11 "2011-12-02T15:54:04Z")
Yes, no doubt there would have been wool caps. I have seen references to working class men of that era as “wool cap boys.” (In the context of describing a political constituency.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/12 "2011-12-02T16:44:16Z")
Please note that Stetson is a brand, not a design. [Stetson](http://www.stetsonhat.com/) made, and still makes, dress and casual hats in addition to cowboy hats. In **aceplace57’s** link, we see that Stetson’s [“Boss of the Plains”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stetson#Boss_of_the_Plains) model seemed to be the beginning of the cowboy hat. It could be reshaped into various configurations, many of which would be recognized as cowboy hats, but in its factory shape it looks like a bowler with a wide flat brim. Reading the Wiki articles on [Stetson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stetson) and [Cowboy hat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_hat), it appears that the truth lies somewhere between Hollywood and bowlers. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/13 "2011-12-02T17:03:54Z")
[Here’s a Remington piece featuring two Stetsons, a bowler, and a wool cap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MVI_2802_Remington%27s_The_Right_of_the_Road.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/14 "2011-12-02T17:07:05Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Please note that Stetson is a brand, not a design. [Stetson](http://www.stetsonhat.com/) made, and still makes, dress and casual hats in addition to cowboy hats. Kind of a pedantic point. I think we all know we’re talking about “cowboy hats.” See the 1957 article I linked using Stetson generically. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/15 "2011-12-02T17:11:20Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Kind of a pedantic point. I think we all know we’re talking about “cowboy hats.” True, true. I couldn’t help myself. 😃 Mea culpa. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/16 "2011-12-02T17:16:53Z")
No worries. 🙂 Interestingly, [Remington himself seems to have been a derby man](http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-small/frederic-remington-granger.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/17 "2011-12-02T17:32:32Z")
I’m sure the men who settled the West wore all sorts of hats. The ones popular Back East like the bowler & the top hat, plus caps & whatever else immigrants might wear. But most of cowboy culture came from Mexico–where they wore broad-brimmed sombreros & pointy-toed riding boots, often with tooled leather decorations. I’ll bet Texans & other southwesterners had adapted these fashions before Mr Stetson designed his first hat. Texas Rangers started wearing the Stetson early on. The artists & showmen (like Buffalo Bill) who began romanticizing the West even before the frontier closed probably thought the cowboy hat was more dashing than Eastern styles. As film & TV carried on the story of The Old West, who wanted to see guys wearing those old fashioned bowlers? Even when men still wore hats, styles had changed… ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/18 "2011-12-02T18:31:48Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’m sure the men who settled the West wore all sorts of hats. The ones popular Back East like the bowler & the top hat, plus caps & whatever else immigrants might wear. > > But most of cowboy culture came from Mexico–where they wore broad-brimmed sombreros & pointy-toed riding boots, often with tooled leather decorations. This is correct. People wore whatever headgear was appropriate for their work, or just whatever they had. Bowlers were popluar as a “dress-up” hat; they were also something of a trademark for railroaders, as mentioned above, especially for locomotive engineers. They were also preferred by miners who worked underground and would coat them with tar or resin to form a primtive “hard hat”. Laborers commonly wore cloth caps…the “flat cap” or “pub cap” types were univeresally popular, and a lot of vintage photographs show men wearing [soldier caps](http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-70332640723715_2186_802925). Riders and farmers usually used some kind of broad-brimmed sombrero or stetson type of straw, felt or leather to shade the face & neck, or to shed rain. We usually think of the pull-on “cowboy” boots as being typical western wear. Of course the pointed toes and high heel were important for riding, but the slip-on type, if used at all, were mostly for dress-up wear. Working cowboys, then and now preferred a [lace-up riding boot.](http://www.drewsboots.com/images/Whites/Whites695C.jpg) for better support. Laboring types wore something similar but with a lower heel and rounded heel. SS ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/19 "2011-12-02T18:39:23Z")
I can think of one Western where the heroes wore derby hats. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvuNcPx2dg) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/20 "2011-12-02T20:06:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I can think of one Western where the heroes wore derby hats. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_SvuNcPx2dg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvuNcPx2dg) In “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid”, the boys were shown to wear bowlers when they wanted to dress up. > **[Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)](https://www.imdb.com/media/rm476354560/tt0064115)** > > "Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid," Paul Newman, Katherine Ross, & Robert Redford. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835.md?page=2)