# Is the Stetson hat in movie westerns a fraud? Is the Derby/Bowler really The Hat That Won the West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835 "2011-12-02T14:04:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/21 "2011-12-02T21:20:40Z")
Russel Crowe went for a [derby style hat](http://baronhats.com/Yuma_repro.htm) in _3:10 to Yuma_ thinking the traditional cowboy hat didn’t fit his character. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/22 "2011-12-02T21:50:15Z")
Are a derby and a bowler the same thing? In [_A Clockwork Orange_](http://www.fanpop.com/spots/a-clockwork-orange/images/20833552/title/korova-milk-bar-fanart), the hats worn by Alex and Dim are slightly different, with the latter having a taller crown. I concluded that Alex’s is a derby and Dim’s is a bowler. Am I correct? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/23 "2011-12-02T21:50:25Z")
> [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](#): > > Russel Crowe went for a [derby style hat](http://baronhats.com/Yuma_repro.htm) in _3:10 to Yuma_ thinking the traditional cowboy hat didn’t fit his character. And yours for only $1200! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/24 "2011-12-02T21:55:07Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Are a derby and a bowler the same thing? In [_A Clockwork Orange_](http://www.fanpop.com/spots/a-clockwork-orange/images/20833552/title/korova-milk-bar-fanart), the hats worn by Alex and Dim are slightly different, with the latter having a taller crown. I concluded that Alex’s is a derby and Dim’s is a bowler. Am I correct? The dark on dark coloring make’s it tough to make out McDowell’s hat in that animated shot. I typed out “derby hat” in wikipedia, and I got the article for the bowler. [Bowler hat - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_hat) ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/25 "2011-12-02T23:06:15Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Laboring types wore something similar but with a lower heel and rounded heel. > SS What I _meant_ to say was “a lower heel and rounded **toe** ” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/26 "2011-12-02T23:29:43Z")
I’m reading _The Lost City of Z_ right now, about Percy Fawcett’s Amazon jungle exploration (and his disappearance therein) and there are plenty of mentions of his favorite Stetson with pictures to back it up. This is a little past the old west, somewhere around WWI and not actually in the American west but, close enough for gun shooting. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/27 "2011-12-03T17:48:39Z")
This is a hijack, but here’s a fairly interesting article on the origin of the [Jughead Hat.](http://learning2share.blogspot.com/2009/04/search-term-jugheads-hat.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/28 "2011-12-05T03:56:23Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Are a derby and a bowler the same thing? In [_A Clockwork Orange_](http://www.fanpop.com/spots/a-clockwork-orange/images/20833552/title/korova-milk-bar-fanart), the hats worn by Alex and Dim are slightly different, with the latter having a taller crown. I concluded that Alex’s is a derby and Dim’s is a bowler. Am I correct? My understanding is that this style of hat is called a bowler in the UK and a derby in North America. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/29 "2011-12-05T18:34:35Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Yes, no doubt there would have been wool caps. I have seen references to working class men of that era as “wool cap boys.” (In the context of describing a political constituency.) The phrase is “wool hat boys,” and refers to a populist, agrarian movement in the South during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. It was a farmers-vs.-bankers kind of thing, and the wool hat boys called the bankers the silk hat boys. ---
**Author:** ![Inthewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Inthewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inthewater)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/30 "2011-12-05T18:41:52Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > But I am still intrigued by the notion of dusty cow-towns populated by men in bowlers. (Even if those were only their going-into-town hats.) It would be interesting to see a Western depicting that. I am not sure it was bowlers or any specific hat, but I know when watching the behind the scenes stuff on the new True Grit, they mentioned what we are discussing. That most actual pioneers and citizens in those old frontier towns just wore whatever they had, and it usually wasn’t the iconic cowboy style stetson hat. There aren’t many people in the film with that sort of hat on, I don’t think the on Jeff Bridges wears is even really one, more of a fedora. Anyway, just something I had noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/31 "2011-12-05T19:34:18Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The phrase is “wool hat boys”… Right you are. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/32 "2011-12-05T19:44:19Z")
IIRC Heaven’s Gate had a wide variety of headgear. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/33 "2011-12-06T15:55:00Z")
> [@Woeg](#): > > Dangnabbit, _aceplace57_, you beat me to it! That’s it, you varmint - **pistols at noon!** You wear yer derby, I’ll wear the stetson. 😉 To add another Western myth to the thread, slick gunfighters with lightning quick draws were a Hollywood fable, as a European film director found out when he was doing research for a Western. Revolvers were so big and heavy in those days that both hands were needed to hold it up if you wanted to shoot anywhere near your target. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/34 "2011-12-06T16:51:31Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Revolvers were so big and heavy in those days that both hands were needed to hold it up if you wanted to shoot anywhere near your target. That depends on the revolver. Perhaps the most popular revolver for a very long time was Colt’s Navy Caliber of 1851. (Hickok used them.) These .36 caliber cap-and-ball revolvers are quite easy to shoot one-handed. I don’t have the Army model of 1860, which is a .44, but they are of similar size and weight of the Navies. I have a Ruger Blackhawk with a 7-1/2" barrel in .45 Long Colt, which is a copy of the Colt Peacemaker (1873). It’s not hard to shoot single-handed, though a former coworker who used a .38 thought it was huge and kicked a lot. Another popular handgun was Colt’s Pocket Pistol of 1849. These were particularly popular in Gold Rush-era California, as were other ‘pocket pistols’. (Compared to modern pocket pistols, they were pretty big.) Military pistols before the Colt Army and Colt Navy were large and heavy. These were guns such as the Dragoon and the Walker .44 caliber revolvers. (IIRC, the Dragoons were developed with a smaller chamber because the Walkers occasionally blew up.) I have a Walker, but haven’t had a chance to fire it lo, these many years. It weighs something like 4.4 pounds. No doubt I’d shoot it two-handed. But the Walker and Dragoons were sometimes called ‘pommel pistols’. They were commonly held in a holster attached to the pommel of a saddle. As such, they were intended to be usable one-handed while riding a horse. None of which negates the Hollywood-style gunfight as a myth. Only, the Weaver stance didn’t come along until about 100 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/35 "2011-12-06T16:56:16Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > To add another Western myth to the thread, slick gunfighters with lightning quick draws… There were some quick shooters. But Hickok said that the important thing is to remain calm and take careful aim while someone is shooting at you. Chances are that the other guy is going to try to get off a quick shot and miss. That gives you time to plug him. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/36 "2011-12-06T17:10:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > They were commonly held in a holster attached to the pommel of a saddle. As such, they were intended to be usable one-handed while riding a horse. As [This photo](http://www.old-picture.com/old-west/pictures/Cavalry-Soldier.jpg) shows, (although not a pommel holster) cavlary wore them on their right hip, butt forward. Troopers reached across and used the pistol with their left hand, and drew the saber from its left-side scabard with the right hand, while guiding the horse with their knees. Later, in WWI, when pistols were better suited than rifles for trench raiding, aside from a few infantry officers’ right-hip/butt-back holsters, they were encumbered with these old cavlary holsters that required the average right-handed man to draw the pistol with his left hand and then transfer it to his right. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/37 "2011-12-06T17:28:04Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > As [This photo](http://www.old-picture.com/old-west/pictures/Cavalry-Soldier.jpg) shows, (although not a pommel holster) cavlary wore them on their right hip, butt forward. Troopers reached across and used the pistol with their left hand, and drew the saber from its left-side scabard with the right hand, while guiding the horse with their knees. That photo seems to be later than the period I’m talking about. The carbine appears to be a Spencer, or maybe a Sharps. If that’s a Civil War photo, then I’d suspect the handgun is a smaller Colt Army instead of a Dragoon or a Walker. I don’t have the time to look for images from the 1840s/1850s (which would probably be illustrations), but I did find [these images](http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?p=19920&sid=f1a92d6847ffae0d82c8a2c1ad37fa77#p19920) showing British soldiers with pommel holsters. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/38 "2011-12-07T00:38:08Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > That depends on the revolver… I bow to your impressive knowledge of the subject. Sergio Leone should have looked you up (I think it was him). “the Weaver stance…” My first thought was Dennis Weaver in Gunsmoke, but he didn’t play a gunfighter so I looked it up and became a little more educated. I looked up Hickok too, and to get back on the thread topic, he mostly wore a flatter style of hat with a broad brim, not the traditional Stetson-style hat. It made him look quite a flamboyant character with his long hair and stylish beard. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/39 "2011-12-07T04:19:13Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I looked up Hickok too, and to get back on the thread topic, he mostly wore a flatter style of hat with a broad brim, not the traditional Stetson-style hat. It made him look quite a flamboyant character with his long hair and stylish beard. I have a Stetson that looks [a little like this](http://www.buckaroohatters.com/hats/telescoping_crown.jpg), but a lighter shade of off-white. I’m not really into ‘cowboy hats’, and I didn’t want the ‘ten-gallon’ style. Since the crown came unformed, I had them do the telescoping crown. It was nice shade in the desert, but I don’t have a use for it up here. I usually wear a fedora or a pork pie. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/40 "2011-12-07T04:34:15Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Is the entire self-image of Texas built on a fraud? More than one fraud, I’d say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835.md?page=3)