# Is the Stetson hat in movie westerns a fraud? Is the Derby/Bowler really The Hat That Won the West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835 "2011-12-02T14:04:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/41 "2011-12-07T12:51:15Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > This is a hijack, but here’s a fairly interesting article on the origin of the [Jughead Hat.](http://learning2share.blogspot.com/2009/04/search-term-jugheads-hat.html) All this time i thought he was wearing (a ripoff of the) Burger King crown because he likes to eat so much. And that he was just accepted to be weird (hence the name), so no one made any big deal over it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/42 "2011-12-07T13:59:16Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > More than one fraud, I’d say. Texas [sawmill workers](http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/images/YOUNGWIL.jpg) in 1910. Past the Winning of The West (& East Texas was never “The West.”) But it illustrates a selection of styles. Including a couple of Stetsons–or Stetson knockoffs. Stetsons have been widely worn, in Texas & elsewhere, for longer than the brief period of The Frontier. Working men in Mexico like them; the ornate sombreros are for rich charros & mariachis. But we have [other hat makers](http://www.pbhats.com/private/PB_WEST_FELT/Default.htm)–would you like a “Gus” hat (from _Lonesome Dove_, of course)–or maybe a gambler hat–Wild Bill was a gambler. Or maybe you’d like to dress [like a blues man](http://www.pbhats.com/private/BORSALINO_FELT/Default.htm)–or want something to go with your zoot suit. Sorry, I’ve descended to Hat Porn. Anything is better than those damn ball caps–worn backwards by guys who are old enough to know better… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/43 "2011-12-07T14:40:40Z")
I don’t have my National Geographic collection here, but there was an article (c. 2001) about ranch workers in Colorado which mentioned that there’s a variety of styles worn and that people from different areas will wear different ones. The pictures showed all kinds of hat styles; some of them depict what’s called a _sombrero cordobés_ in Spanish, with a short cilindrical top and a flat round brim. I’ve been wondering whether that hat was a case of parallel evolution or the design actually reached Colorado from Cordoba ever since I saw the pic. ---
**Author:** ![Fir\_na\_tine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fir\_na\_tine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fir_na_tine)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/44 "2011-12-07T15:43:16Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > IIRC Heaven’s Gate had a wide variety of headgear. So you’re the one that saw the movie! ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/45 "2011-12-07T16:01:16Z")
When I visited the dude ranch, I wore not only a ten-gallon hat, but a pair of ten-gallon pants. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/46 "2011-12-07T17:35:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I don’t have my National Geographic collection here, but there was an article (c. 2001) about ranch workers in Colorado which mentioned that there’s a variety of styles worn and that people from different areas will wear different ones. The pictures showed all kinds of hat styles; some of them depict what’s called a _sombrero cordobés_ in Spanish, with a short cilindrical top and a flat round brim. I’ve been wondering whether that hat was a case of parallel evolution or the design actually reached Colorado from Cordoba ever since I saw the pic. That’s the style typically shown being worn by Spanish/Mexican gentlemen in California during the period of Spanish and Mexican rule. Most Americans will readily associate it with the fictional hero [Zorro](https://www.google.com/search?q=zorro&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnsb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=aaHfTrX6IMOvsAKkxIzeBg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=567). I’d say it’s a good bet the design was brought from Spain. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/47 "2011-12-07T19:36:05Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > To add another Western myth to the thread, slick gunfighters with lightning quick draws were a Hollywood fable, as a European film director found out when he was doing research for a Western. Revolvers were so big and heavy in those days that both hands were needed to hold it up if you wanted to shoot anywhere near your target. The ammo was very unreliable, too. It was entirely possible that half the rounds in the cylinder would misfire. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/48 "2011-12-08T03:43:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The ammo was very unreliable, too. It was entirely possible that half the rounds in the cylinder would misfire. I read in a Hickok bio that he would discharge his Navies in the morning and reload them each day to ensure that the rather hygroscopic black powder in the chamber was dry. Cap-and-ball firearms that were in wide use before 1873 were front-loaders. Powder was poured into the chamber, and a ball was seated on top of it. Lubricant was smeared over the opening to reduce fouling (black powder leaves a lot of residue), help prevent flash-overs, and to provide a barrier against moisture. Once the chamber was loaded, a percussion cap was put on the nipple at the rear. Metallic cartridges existed before 1873, of course. The first successful one was the .22 BB Cap around 1845. My recollection is a little fuzzy here, but ISTR that Smith & Wesson had a patent on the ‘through’ cylinder (i.e., the chamber went all the way through the cylinder, rather than having a solid breach as in front-loaders) that didn’t expire until 1873. Many Colt 1851 and 1860s, as well as a plethora of other handguns were modified to use metallic cartridges. By this time I believe that metallic cartridges had achieved pretty solid reliability. Not that that has anything to do with hats! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/49 "2011-12-08T04:15:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Not that that has anything to do with hats! It does if we’re a-gonna shoot 'em off people’s heads, pardner! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/50 "2011-12-08T04:17:04Z")
I think _Mythbusters_ busted that one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/51 "2011-12-08T04:29:18Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > So you’re the one that saw the movie! I saw it too. Liked it. Bought the DVD. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/52 "2011-12-08T04:42:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I have a Stetson that looks [a little like this](http://www.buckaroohatters.com/hats/telescoping_crown.jpg), but a lighter shade of off-white. I’m not really into ‘cowboy hats’, and I didn’t want the ‘ten-gallon’ style. Since the crown came unformed, I had them do the telescoping crown. It was nice shade in the desert, but I don’t have a use for it up here. I usually wear a fedora or a pork pie. My first thought when I saw that was “riverboat gambler”, but that could be an impression I got from movies and TV. Maybe that’s a myth, too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/53 "2011-12-08T04:44:10Z")
I think of it as a ‘Plains’ style. (I don’t know if that’s an actual term.) ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/54 "2011-12-08T05:19:00Z")
I have no proof, but logically, I would suspect that most cowboys wore what they could afford. I think there is historical proof that the “boss of the plains” was popular, but a sombrero seems to me to be another good choice while working. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/55 "2011-12-08T13:58:17Z")
From a website for shooters: [In Search of The Real Cowboy Hat](http://www.curtrich.com/hats.html). > [@](#): > > Most SASS members know John B. Stetson invented the cowboy hat in 1865. He made one hat at the time, with a wide 4" brim and low 4" to 4-1/2" crown, flat on the top, rounded edges. It was made of good quality materials, fur felt, not wool, with a satin lining and sheepskin or lambskin sweatband. He called it the Boss of the Plains. These hats made the company. But by 1872 the Boss of the Plains was less than 20% of the company’s sales. They sold all kinds and shapes of dress hats for city folks. > > We’ll come back to Stetson. What else did they wear? > > They wore Planters hats, beehives, bowlers, sombreros, caps, whatever they had. Of course, the men who “won” the West were the dudes who founded towns, opened banks & got signatures on the dotted lines. Mostly, they wore bowlers. (Oh, and wouldn’t Planters hats be the choice of riverboat gamblers? Which they kept as they moved West.) Of course, [Stetsons are Cool](http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2010/12/27/stetsons-are-cool-watch-the-teaser-for-doctor-who-series-6/),. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/56 "2011-12-08T17:32:17Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > (Oh, and wouldn’t Planters hats be the choice of riverboat gamblers? Which they kept as they moved West.) Yep, to my eye, the Planters hat looks close to Johnny L.A.'s hat (at least the pic he linked to that’s similar to his hat). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/57 "2011-12-08T19:01:02Z")
Or they wore one of [these](http://www.sheplers.com/scala-little-joe-gambler-wool-hat.html#), which is the one I own. Works quite well _outside_ a gambling hall, too. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/58 "2011-12-08T19:11:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > From a website for shooters: [In Search of The Real Cowboy Hat](http://www.curtrich.com/hats.html). Good article. Very informative. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![hillbillyfox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@hillbillyfox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillyfox)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/59 "2013-02-04T09:37:47Z")
in the movie joe kidd , clint eastwood wore a derby in the beginning of the movie, then switched to a different type of cowboy hat when he left town to after being hired to track. I have a derby hat made by Stetson called a bat masterson. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835/60 "2013-02-04T21:22:26Z")
What’s really is sad is when your [Ten gallon hat is feelin’ five gallons flat.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3jgo5ea_zc) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-stetson-hat-in-movie-westerns-a-fraud-is-the-derby-bowler-really-the-hat-that-won-the-west/604835.md?page=2)