Is the stock market a giant zero-sum game/giant pyramid (ponzi) scheme?

No.

No.

$5, $10, $20 whatever.

Valuing a company based on their physical assets is rare. The more common method is a discounted future cash flow model. I.E. The present value of the sum of future earnings reduced by a percentage based on the time it is presumed to take to get them and the probablility of getting them.

For example, my Lemonade business has assets worth $1,000. I have a 95% probability of earning $400 this year, 80% probability of $500 the next year, 70% of at least $600 the following year, etc etc. We will assume that I have been in business for five years and in the past have grown at this sort of rate and have a reasonable expectation of continuing to do so.

So, starting with the first year, we’ll assume that the riskless return is 5%. That means $400 a year from now is only worth $380 today. I have only a 95% chance of getting that though so lets make that $360. That brings it to parity versus the riskless return and the risk. But parity is quite enough is it? If it was just equal everybody would keep their money safe and avoid the risk and the wait, right? We need to apply a discount rate to give an appropriate reward for the risk and the wait and the hazards and opportunity costs those entail. Let’s say that discount rate is 6%. That brings us down to $336.

We do that for each of the following years. Eventually we reach a point where we can no longer predict the returns down the road, or the risk is so high and the discounts so high that these future sums are negligible.

Anyway, we add up the sum of these future discounted cash flows and arrive at a number. Let’s call it $3,000.

Should we add in the original $1,000 of assets? No. We’ve built that in already. You see we assume that some of those assets will get old and depreciate (lose value) and need to be replaced and that other assets will have to be bought. For example five years down the road we may assume that we are going to earn $800. At that time all of the lemonade stands that we have today that are nice and shiny new and worth $1,000 will be old and decrepit and worth $20 and in need of replacement. Every year we’ve been putting aside a portion of our earnings into a capital fund to replace these assets when we needed before we count them as income. Therefore, it really doesn’t matter for valuation purposes what our assets are worth.

To look at it another way, consider a Doctor. Lets say he makes a million dollars a year with his business, but he rents everything, office space, machinery, etc. His sole asset is a stethoscope worth $15.

Do you think you could buy him out for $15 or become his 50% partner for $7.50? No. Clearly his business is worth a lot more as a going concern than the value of its assets.

The value of assets is really only important if we are liquidating (ceasing business and selling things off.)

I’ve grossly simplified but that’s the gist of it.

No.

Why would I ignore dividends? Why do you want to? But if you insist, we will.

When the market is acting efficiently as a discounting mechanism it is not creating wealth, but reflecting value. Let’s say a company starts with $1,000 in assets, and a thousand shares divided among 100 investors. Thirty years Michael Dell takes that $1,000 and in his dorm room he builds five computers and sells them for $1,500. He reinvests that money and builds 7 computers that he sells for $2,200, reinvests that and builds 10 computers that sell for $3,000 etc etc for fifteen years. At the end of fifteen years he sells 10 billion dollars worth of computers and instead of a dorm room he has a corporation, factories, employees etc. but has never paid a dividend.

Do you think the original share is still worth a dollar? If it’s worth more has the stock market created that wealth or has the company created it?

You could apply the dividend discount model which would calculate a value based on the discounted sum of future dividends, or, if that number comes out to lower than the actual assets then you might value the company according to liquidation value.

That’s the same question as #1. Same answer. No. Actually, you can view it that way if you want, just not if you want to view it meaningfully.

The question you are really asking is if the market prices itself accurately. This question is known as the Efficient Market Hypothesis, and is a very deep question important on many levels. If the market were efficient that it would be a perfect discounting mechanism and their would be no advantage in investing in any given stock or asset over any other given stock or asset. All returns would be properly discounted and therefore equivalent.

However, the efficient market hypothesis appears to be false. Most economists will concede the “weak” form of the efficient market hypothesis which is that over time the markets have a kinda sorta tendency towards efficiency.

So, to answer half your question, yes markets sometimes get hyped but the tend to correct over time. Bear in mind that I’m also being simplistic because your questions are only dealing with half the equation. You can’t simply value a business based on the business. You have to give as much if not more consideration to the needs and desires of the potential purchasers.

To see my point, consider this simplistic example: You live in a house worth 1 million dollars. Tomorrow, everybody dies but you. You are the last person on earth. How much is your million dollar house worth?

Nothing about your house has changed, but your pool of potential buyers has just evaporated, hasn’t it?

A price assumes a compromise between a buyer and seller. There is no way to price an asset without a market, and in pricing an asset you must take into account the needs of the market.

Let’s say the tangible value of the stock market no matter how you wish to look at it remains unchanged for ten years in a row, and yet the stock market goes up. Would this imply hype or an overvaluation? Not necessarily.

It might just mean that money is easy and assets are hard. If there is a lot of money chasing only a relatively few stocks the stocks will tend to be priced high. You must also look at the rest of the markets, and realize that their percieved potential returns compared to the stock market will tend to affect its valuation.

That’s simply untrue. While it is certainly true that dividends are valuable and comprise a percentage of total return, it is fallacious and simplistic to assume that they are the alpha and omega of equity investing. Dividend investing can and sometimes is every bit if not more speculative than investing for capital appreciation.

You can’t draw conclusions from a single example, but the example you’ve shown argues against your thesis (as you seem to acknowledge.) While the dividend was certainly nice, it was not what made this example an exceptional investment, it was the capital appreciation.

Yep. What I was saying.
The stock doesn’t have to have a dividend at present, but it should at least have the prospect of one, and if not that, some valuable underlying asset that would make someone else go after it.
In short, some prospect of a payoff somehow. Else, what you’re doing is buying because you think the price will go up because, usually, the price has been going up in the past.
IBD used to publish a relative strength column next to each stock, for instance. That’s speculation.

I’m not sure what your disagreement is. People take their company private for just the reasons you mentioned. And we agree on where the value of the stock comes from (the market) but you haven’t offered any explanation of why.

In some cases, dividends play a role. In other cases, there is the potential for stock buyback, sale of the company, or liquidation, all of which keep the value of the stock tied to the value of the company (as I allowed earlier). But plenty of stocks are valued higher than those things account for, and I imagine almost all stocks are overvalued at some point in time. The OP asked about the value of stocks apart from dividends. I suppose I could have emphasized the importance of buybacks, mergers, and liquidations, but I think everyone agrees that a large part of the market is irrational. You dismiss that aspect, but that is what the OP was asking about.

If there were no possibility for the value of the company to actually be distributed to the shareholders through dividends, sale of the company, or liquidation, I guarantee the market would dissolve. It doesn’t matter how much the capital appreciates, if the investor never sees any of it. To use Scylla’s example, if Dell never issues dividends, and there is no possibility of anyone ever attempting to buy the company out, then no, those shares aren’t worth anything more than they were. In fact, they aren’t worth anything at all. Why would they be?

I don’t see a lot of agreement to that. The value of the stock comes from the value of the company. The market determines the exact amount (which how absolutely everything in the world gets valued), but the underlying worth isn’t created by the market, it’s an inherent aspect of the company.

Stocks are over (and under) valued at points in time because the market is made up of people who can’t actually see the future.

The whole point of the stock market is to set up a system so that you don’t have to sell the entire company to get your capital back out of it. What does it even mean to say “nobody tries to buy the company out” when a whole different set of people can be owning it 5 years from now, just by virtue of stock trades?

I don’t know how I can be any more clear. Stock isn’t magically worth something just because it has a company’s name on it.

Say I form a corporation to hold all of my personal assets. The by-laws of the company state that I always hold at least 51% of the shares of the company, no dividend is ever to be paid out, and upon my death all assets will be transfered to my estate.

I’m pretty poor right now, but I expect my net worth (and hence the worth of my company) to increase dramatically in the next ten years. I’m offering you a chance to get in on the ground floor by purchasing up to 490 of 1000 shares in the company at only $2/share. (Not a real offer. Side effects include nausea and vomiting. Must be 18 or older to call.) Are you interested? Do you think anyone else would be?

Unless there is some way for you or a future investor to get a return without selling, the investment is useless. That is true for every other investment imaginable. Why wouldn’t it be true for stocks?

Please note that I am not claiming that the above situation is analogous to the actual stock market. IRL, investors can get a return without selling stock through dividends, liquidation, buying a controlling share, or engaging in a merger (if the investor is another corporation). But that is not what I understood the OP to be asking about.

Grain and milk and fruit isn’t worth anything either unless there’s customer ready to buy it. If there’s no handy customer, it’s just going to turn into so much rotten, worthless garbage. Actually, it becomes worse than worthless because you have to pay to dispose of it. Sure, you can eat it, but a silo full of corn may as well be a silo full of rocks if you can’t sell it for cash to buy a home, heating oil and clothes for your kids.

Stock is worth something because the company itself is worth something, and stock represents your partial ownership of it. If your assumptions are that the company will never pay a dividend, and never sell to someone else, and all the profits they earn gets stuffed into a mattress for eternity, then the company itself is worthless. Real companies aren’t like that, and if you assign those properties to anything else, it becomes worthless too.

But those aren’t my assumptions, they are the OP’s assumptions. I agree that most companies aren’t like that. Whether some companies (specifically the ones that made up the dot com bubble, e.g.) are like that is another debate, one I won’t argue. I think my mistake here was accepting the premises of the thread without being more explicit about it. I think I have less faith in the rationality of the market than you do, but it is a quantitative, not a qualitative difference.

No one is saying it does. At least, I don’t think they are.

No. Not interested. Not sure what your point is here…

I am afraid I don’t really understand your point here either. What value is there in a steel rod without selling it? what value is there in a law degree without selling your services? Selling is how value is realized. Why would the stock market be any different?

Someone is willing to buy a steel rod because they can use it. I’ve explained myself as well as I know how. I’m willing to address counterarguments, but I’m can’t clarify my argument any more. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

The inherent value of the stock comes from the company, and expectations of the company’s prospects. The immediate value of the stock comes from the market, and the market’s judgement of those prospects - since there is no way of knowing them for sure.

I said nothing about rationality - except in the long term. The spam on penny stocks works because the spammers buy the stocks low, and build up the stock price because of the irrationality of the suckers who bite. The same thing, in principle, happens when an analyst talks up a stock, though the laws say he can’t buy before hand. But as I said, the market is self correcting, and stocks bid up because of this sort of thing find their proper niche soon enough.
And while I agree all stocks are overvalued at some point, almost all stocks are undervalued at some point in time also.

Here’s how to think about dividends. A company with a profit has two options - pay it out as dividends, or reinvest it in the company. A company in a growth market, like tech companies a while ago, will grow much faster by investing the money. If the stock will go up 10% a year thanks to this investment, while money from dividends invested will grow at 5% a year, doesn’t it make sense for shareholders to be happy with no dividends? The answer obviously depends on the company, but saying that dividends are always better doesn’t consider what they can be doing with the money.

An interesting idea, and possibly workable if not for the long time to payout and the fact that it might be considered slavery. The first time I met my now wife’s parents, her father asked me what my prospects were. At the time I was going to MIT majoring in Computer Science, so that was a question I could handle. :slight_smile: But sometimes people having relationships invest in the long term, marrying people with prospects rather than people with money now. So I think your example is right on the money.

You’ve surely heard of case where stocks going down after great earnings reports when the forecast is not what was expected, right? All the available information, including expectations, is baked into the stock price.

I think there are significant problems with the assumptions to begin with. Restricting the ideas being debated makes sense, to simplify the discussion, until you start going too far away from the reality you’re trying to describe.

When you put all of these restrictions on, perhaps stocks do become of dubious value, but so do many other things. At that point, you’re not learning anything unique about the stock market, you’re just describing a set of circumstances where things of all types lose value.

That’s true, Cheesesteak. I’m just not convinced that the stock market never acts that way. My original point, in fact, was that it is possible for the market to act that way all the time.

This is, I admit, a controversial position. Lots of people made this argument during the dot com boom of the 1990s: that even though tech stocks were wildly overvalued by any conventional measurement , there would not necessarily be a correction–the market could just continue to grow. Now obviously, this was ridiculously optimistic (even “irrationally exuberant,” perhaps), and the bubble did in fact burst. But I still don’t think we know that it couldn’t happen.

Now, I probably overstated the case in my first post. I wasn’t clear enough that the market probably doesn’t act this way in real life. I certainly wouldn’t want to defend long-term market irrationality as an affirmative position against all comers. (I’m agnostic on it.) But it seemed a reasonable answer to the OP’s question.

What has kept the debate going is that most people didn’t call me on my argument by pointing out the factors that keep the market rational, but by apparently arguing that the market would be rational even absent those factors. IOW, I took you and most people to be saying that even if a company did stuff its profits in a mattress, it would still be worth more as a stock because its assets were greater. I think some people still believe this.

Heck, Voyager is potentially willing to pay me big bucks just to watch my assets grow, even though I made it perfectly clear that when I die, the assets are returned to my estate! Even if I live forever, those assets might as well be stuffed in a mattress (in fact, they could be!) for all the good they’ll do him.

Sorry, I missed that, and assumed your example was analogous to the market. If the cap of a company goes below its actual assets, someone will buy the company, and sell off those assets to make a profit. If you are still holding stock, you’ll get your share. While this is a rare case, you can’t ignore it.

That’s what I thought. Cool.

Well, that’s not really true at all. Consider the examples of Charlie Munger and Warren Buffet and their company Berkshire Hathaway. That company has never had a dividend, and philosophically never will. They’ve stated that. There is no prospects or thoughts of the company ever dissolving, and it is extremely unlikely that they will be taken over. The goal of the company is simply to increase its stock value by running good businesses and using the profits to purchase other ventures. There is no “payoff.”

It’s a very conservative and a very rational company to my way of thinking.

Nyahhh, that’s information. It just depend on how you use it.

Ok, this is exactly what we’ve been discussing. Why is that stock valuable? I understand why the company is valuable, but why the stock? Why is a owning BH stock certificate any different from owning a blank piece of paper? I expect the answer to be that by owning the stock I own a piece of the company, but what does that mean? What does the stock entitle me to that the piece of paper doesn’t?

Look at it from the point ov view of the IPO investor. What did he get in exchange for his money? If there are no dividends and no assets that will be liquidated, it might as well be a thank you card for the donation to Warren Buffet’s wallet. Sure, if other people are willing to pay even more for the thank you card, then that is the card’s value and it was a good investment, but it seems pretty silly. It’s a stock, not a baseball card.

Well, this is where the phrase I used, “valuable underlying asset”, comes in. In this case, we have a profitable insurance company led by a management team that makes it even more valuable by backing it with good investments and a very loong track record of making good investments.
If you ever broke that company apart, there would be all kinds of valuable underlying assets to sell to the public through an IPO or to private equity investors. That’s what backs up the stock price.
Still in all, I hesitate before I buy a company that doesn’t pay a dividend. Buffett is about the only CEO who’d get a pass for not doing so, since in his case you know he’s not issuing options to his employees as compensation, or issuing options to himself that are backdated, both of which practices make more sense if you’re not paying a dividend.

Well, sure, that’s the correct answer, but Scylla implied that that doesn’t matter, since the company will likely never be broken apart.